RE: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity!
The analogy tying changes in progress to a recreational sport that has the coincidence of relating to one of the changes in the past 2 centuries was a nice touch. However, if there is any practical reason for contesting other than vanity and ego, it would be learning to become better operators. In doing this, we make the best use of spectrum in preparation for serving others as a partial payment for the spectrum that was awarded to us for doing this public service when called upon to do so. But, this debate will rage on for a few more decades, and then over the majority of the licensed hams will be dead from attrition, and it will no longer be a consideration for anecdotal discussion. Wouldn't the energy be better spent trying to capture the interest of younger operators who are savvy in current and emerging technology in order to perpetuate our survival? - - - Or is it better to make cute analogies and watch the average age of the Amateur Radio Operator go higher than the 62 to 65 years old that it already is today? Bottom line, anyway you stack it, any way you try to ignore it is that our inability to progress with the times has left the majority of amateur radio operators well behind the curve as far as technology goes. If the easy way is to continue honoring tradition because that is easier than staying current with technology, then we will get what we are looking for; death of the service by attrition. Hate to be so blunt, but I am sure you know the old analogy about death and taxes. So far, we have been able to avoid taxation on the amateur spectrum. -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Chudek Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:42 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity! --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Becker, WØJAB Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:11 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] PSK63 activity! At 08:00 PM 11/18/2007, you wrote: It is not like adding CW to a phone contest because both RTTY and PSK63 are keyboard modes. Phone and CW are not. Well just add the rest of the keyboard modes while your at it... And please make sure you do add both the keyboard mode of Amtor and Pactor. I still fail to see why psk should be added to a RTTY contest. Possibly for the same reason that they started allowing horseless carriages on the same streets as horses. -- Yes, of course the older technology was displaced by the horseless carriage. However, when it comes to contesting, the horse tracks continue to support a sizeable following and they don't mix the two technologies during the races.
RE: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity!
This is also rationalization. The ability to provide disaster communications entails many skills. Good contesting is virtually meaningless to that skill set. Rud Merriam K5RUD ARES AEC Montgomery County, TX http://TheHamNetwork.net -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 6:26 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity! However, if there is any practical reason for contesting other than vanity and ego, it would be learning to become better operators. In doing this, we make the best use of spectrum in preparation for serving others as a partial payment for the spectrum that was awarded to us for doing this public service when called upon to do so.
RE: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity!
This is also rationalization. The ability to provide disaster communications entails many skills. Good contesting is virtually meaningless to that skill set. Well, I'm not sure I agree with the implied assumption that the only goal of amateur radio is the ability to provide disaster communications... however, in my experience, contesting DOES help to sharpen one's skills and might even help develop skills useful in disaster communications: The ability to operate well (tune and isolate signals, operate one's equipment, select and fire the right macro) under pressure of time and with less sleep than one is used to is certainly a useful skill to develop. You have to move quickly, confidently, and with agility. de Peter K1PGV
Re: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity!
Maybe the FCC rules that say the minimum power needed for the communication should be used also say that the minimum bandwidth needed for the communication should be used! Of course, there is more to it than just that, as multi-tone modes, such as MFSK16 or Olivia, etc, use more bandwidth in order to better handle fading (and atmospheric doppler), but with an increased latency that make them impractical for RTTY-type contesting with fast exchanges. PSK63 is a reasonable compromise, and can be run at 1500 watts as well as at 20 watts, as long as the amplification is kept linear, and the equipment can handle a 90% duty cycle. The rationale for this is quite basic. For example, the phone bands have just been expanded to accomodate more phone operators, at the expense of CW and digital operating space. Therefore, if the minimum bandwidth for the communication is used (by using PSK63 instead of RTTY, for example), there will more room for CW and other digital modes. In the case of RTTY, the communication using PSK63 is very, very, similar to using RTTY on a computer, except that PSK63 uses only about 1/5 the space of RTTY. The speed of PSK63 is 100 wpm vs RTTY of generally 60 wpm, but the extra speed is needed to compensate for the preamble and postamble of the mode, so that during contest exchanges, the total exchange and turnover times are roughly the same. PSK63 supports both upper and lower case, but RTTY only supports upper case. However, PSK63 can also be typed and sent in all upper case if desired. The comparison between RTTY and other digital modes is not nearly as close as the comparison between RTTY and PSK63, so that supports the possiblity that PSK63 can easily replace RTTY from a communication standpoint, and do it in less bandwidth with a smaller error rate (due the to quicker synchronization of PSK63), and with less power for the same distance (due to the more narrow bandwidth and therefore better S/N). The main caveat is that RTTY is better than PSK63 under multipath or atmosphic doppler conditions. For these conditions, modes like Olivia and MFSK16 are more the equal of RTTY, or even better. With a properly designed receiver (especially one that reduces AGC capture by adjacent signals), more signals in the passband can be observed at one time with PSK63 than with RTTY. I started with RTTY in 1956 with a Model 26 green-key machine, upgraded to a Model 15 and later to a Model 19 with reperf, and enjoyed RTTY immensely. I still miss the smell of the machine oil and the newsroom clatter of the Model 15, and that is still available to those who have to have it, but for the purpose of pure RTTY-type communication (and constests), the benefits of PSK63 generally outweigh the benefits of RTTY, and would free up more space for non-contesters during contests if RTTY were totally replaced by PSK63. This is why I think there should be more encouragement to use PSK63 for contests, including RTTY contests. 73, Skip KH6TY - Original Message - From: Rud Merriam [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:42 PM Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity! This is also rationalization. The ability to provide disaster communications entails many skills. Good contesting is virtually meaningless to that skill set. Rud Merriam K5RUD ARES AEC Montgomery County, TX http://TheHamNetwork.net -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 6:26 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity! However, if there is any practical reason for contesting other than vanity and ego, it would be learning to become better operators. In doing this, we make the best use of spectrum in preparation for serving others as a partial payment for the spectrum that was awarded to us for doing this public service when called upon to do so. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1139 - Release Date: 11/19/2007 12:35 PM
Re: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity!
Rud, I am surprised you would make such a statement since the skills of being able to hear properly and transfer that skill to correctly copy and record the messages is exactly the same skill needed as a contester. You must have a high level of accuracy in each activity to do well. Most contesters also tend to also be fairly conversant with the technical side of amateur radio, typically well above the average ham participating in emergency communications. They are much more knowledgeable about antennas, rigs, interconnections, efficiency, etc. Many (most?) of the operators involved in emergency communications tend to be newer Technician class licensees with very limited experience. In fact, this is so pronounced that leadership here in our Section tends to focus on technologies that dovetail with those kinds of limitations. 73, Rick, KV9U Rud Merriam wrote: This is also rationalization. The ability to provide disaster communications entails many skills. Good contesting is virtually meaningless to that skill set. Rud Merriam K5RUD ARES AEC Montgomery County, TX http://TheHamNetwork.net
Re: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity!
Skip you points are well taken. My point was not to mix another mode in with a RTTY contest. If you really miss that smell of the machine oil and the newsroom clatter stop by some time. Still doing RTTY with a pair of 28's. One ASR and one KSR. John, W0JAB in the center of flyover country At 12:31 PM 11/19/2007, you wrote: Maybe the FCC rules that say the minimum power needed for the communication should be used also say that the minimum bandwidth needed for the communication should be used! Of course, there is more to it than just that, as multi-tone modes, such as MFSK16 or Olivia, etc, use more bandwidth in order to better handle fading (and atmospheric doppler), but with an increased latency that make them impractical for RTTY-type contesting with fast exchanges. PSK63 is a reasonable compromise, and can be run at 1500 watts as well as at 20 watts, as long as the amplification is kept linear, and the equipment can handle a 90% duty cycle. The rationale for this is quite basic. For example, the phone bands have just been expanded to accomodate more phone operators, at the expense of CW and digital operating space. Therefore, if the minimum bandwidth for the communication is used (by using PSK63 instead of RTTY, for example), there will more room for CW and other digital modes. In the case of RTTY, the communication using PSK63 is very, very, similar to using RTTY on a computer, except that PSK63 uses only about 1/5 the space of RTTY. The speed of PSK63 is 100 wpm vs RTTY of generally 60 wpm, but the extra speed is needed to compensate for the preamble and postamble of the mode, so that during contest exchanges, the total exchange and turnover times are roughly the same. PSK63 supports both upper and lower case, but RTTY only supports upper case. However, PSK63 can also be typed and sent in all upper case if desired. The comparison between RTTY and other digital modes is not nearly as close as the comparison between RTTY and PSK63, so that supports the possiblity that PSK63 can easily replace RTTY from a communication standpoint, and do it in less bandwidth with a smaller error rate (due the to quicker synchronization of PSK63), and with less power for the same distance (due to the more narrow bandwidth and therefore better S/N). The main caveat is that RTTY is better than PSK63 under multipath or atmosphic doppler conditions. For these conditions, modes like Olivia and MFSK16 are more the equal of RTTY, or even better. With a properly designed receiver (especially one that reduces AGC capture by adjacent signals), more signals in the passband can be observed at one time with PSK63 than with RTTY. I started with RTTY in 1956 with a Model 26 green-key machine, upgraded to a Model 15 and later to a Model 19 with reperf, and enjoyed RTTY immensely. I still miss the smell of the machine oil and the newsroom clatter of the Model 15, and that is still available to those who have to have it, but for the purpose of pure RTTY-type communication (and constests), the benefits of PSK63 generally outweigh the benefits of RTTY, and would free up more space for non-contesters during contests if RTTY were totally replaced by PSK63. This is why I think there should be more encouragement to use PSK63 for contests, including RTTY contests. 73, Skip KH6TY
RE: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity!
How much skill is needed to recognize the few symbols transferred during a contest exchange? Does that translate to general transfer of information? Contesters specialize and tune their equipment. Does that translate into the ability to quickly rig a dipole at an emergency center? The former EC for my county is a contester. He recognizes the difference in skills. I tried to communicate on HF with him a few weeks ago. I had just got my fence dipole antenna installed. He and I could not communicate. I was able to communicate with others in the county. His contesting setup just went right over my head since it was focused for DX. He probably would have done better with his backup antenna stapled to the rafters in his attic. Rud Merriam K5RUD ARES AEC Montgomery County, TX http://TheHamNetwork.net -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 1:07 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity! Rud, I am surprised you would make such a statement since the skills of being able to hear properly and transfer that skill to correctly copy and record the messages is exactly the same skill needed as a contester. You must have a high level of accuracy in each activity to do well. Most contesters also tend to also be fairly conversant with the technical side of amateur radio, typically well above the average ham participating in emergency communications. They are much more knowledgeable about antennas, rigs, interconnections, efficiency, etc. Many (most?) of the operators involved in emergency communications tend to be newer Technician class licensees with very limited experience. In fact, this is so pronounced that leadership here in our Section tends to focus on technologies that dovetail with those kinds of limitations. 73, Rick, KV9U Rud Merriam wrote: This is also rationalization. The ability to provide disaster communications entails many skills. Good contesting is virtually meaningless to that skill set. Rud Merriam K5RUD ARES AEC Montgomery County, TX http://TheHamNetwork.net Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at http://www.obriensweb.com/drsked/drsked.php Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity!
Hi Rud, Operating skill may not be the prime consideration. Contesters also strive for the most effective stations in order to try and win. For DX contests, this truly may mean low angles of radiation, but for SS contests, the avid contester may utilize several antennas with different angles or radiation, such as both dipoles and verticals, and use both in a contest. In fact, a group from here just make a Dxpedition to the Bahamas and brought back pictures of both horizontal and vertical antennas. I myself have both verticals and dipoles (no HF beams) at my own QTH, depending on where I want to operate. In any case, as you know, emergency communications utilizes people at fixed locations as well as those in an emergency center or disaster site. In general, the ARRL Field Day is considered useful for setting up equipment in temporary locations and proving out the equipment as it might be used in an emergency. Although not described as a contest, it is widely considered to be one, and points and multipliers are earned for each successful QSO, just as in contests. I think any activity that prepares an operator or station to assist in emergency communications is worthwhile and includes preparation for contests as well as proving out equipment setups during contests. Operating skills for contests are definitely different from those need for emergency communications, though. 73, Skip KH6TY - Original Message - From: Rud Merriam [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 2:19 PM Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity! How much skill is needed to recognize the few symbols transferred during a contest exchange? Does that translate to general transfer of information? Contesters specialize and tune their equipment. Does that translate into the ability to quickly rig a dipole at an emergency center? The former EC for my county is a contester. He recognizes the difference in skills. I tried to communicate on HF with him a few weeks ago. I had just got my fence dipole antenna installed. He and I could not communicate. I was able to communicate with others in the county. His contesting setup just went right over my head since it was focused for DX. He probably would have done better with his backup antenna stapled to the rafters in his attic. Rud Merriam K5RUD ARES AEC Montgomery County, TX http://TheHamNetwork.net -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 1:07 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity! Rud, I am surprised you would make such a statement since the skills of being able to hear properly and transfer that skill to correctly copy and record the messages is exactly the same skill needed as a contester. You must have a high level of accuracy in each activity to do well. Most contesters also tend to also be fairly conversant with the technical side of amateur radio, typically well above the average ham participating in emergency communications. They are much more knowledgeable about antennas, rigs, interconnections, efficiency, etc. Many (most?) of the operators involved in emergency communications tend to be newer Technician class licensees with very limited experience. In fact, this is so pronounced that leadership here in our Section tends to focus on technologies that dovetail with those kinds of limitations. 73, Rick, KV9U Rud Merriam wrote: This is also rationalization. The ability to provide disaster communications entails many skills. Good contesting is virtually meaningless to that skill set. Rud Merriam K5RUD ARES AEC Montgomery County, TX http://TheHamNetwork.net Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at http://www.obriensweb.com/drsked/drsked.php Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1139 - Release Date: 11/19/2007 12:35 PM
[digitalradio] Re: PSK63 activity!
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Becker, WØJAB Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:11 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] PSK63 activity! At 08:00 PM 11/18/2007, you wrote: It is not like adding CW to a phone contest because both RTTY and PSK63 are keyboard modes. Phone and CW are not. Well just add the rest of the keyboard modes while your at it... And please make sure you do add both the keyboard mode of Amtor and Pactor. I still fail to see why psk should be added to a RTTY contest. Possibly for the same reason that they started allowing horseless carriages on the same streets as horses. - Yes, of course the older technology was displaced by the horseless carriage. However, when it comes to contesting, the horse tracks continue to support a sizeable following and they don't mix the two technologies during the races.
