Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

[David Hampton]

On Fri, 2018-09-14 at 14:57 -0400, David T. via gnucash-devel wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of
> the Gnome HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.
> 
> My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it
> says:
> Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface
> Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance
> to many other GNOME applications. 
> 
> Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?

I spent a fair amount of time making sure that it was accurate when it
was written (over a decade ago).  As John mentioned elsewhere, the HIG
has changed over time and Gnucash hasn't, so it should probably be
removed.

David

> David
> 
>  
> Previous discussion:
> 
> I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the
> future because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core
> and too many MVC violations to be able to implement a different
> toolkit.
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> 
> 
> > On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone <
> > adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net  > adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> wrote:
> > 
> > Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at
> > least with respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used?
> > What layout principles? Or are those questions so far in the future
> > as to not be worth spending time allowing room for?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Adrien
> > 
> > > On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls  > > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone <
> > > > adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net  > > > adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel <
> > > > > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > In other words, unless there is a change in function, there
> > > > > is no need to change the functional description. It seems to
> > > > > me that putting text that doesn’t change into code is
> > > > > essentially a one-time process. Not necessarily easy, but
> > > > > once completed, not particularly obtrusive. Putting the
> > > > > functional description into code has the added benefit,
> > > > > perhaps, of alerting developers to the fact that if they
> > > > > change a feature, the description (right there in the code)
> > > > > needs an update as well.
> > > > 
> > > > While the principles might not change, or even the name/label
> > > > of certain buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the
> > > > fact that they are buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will
> > > > very likely change as the Gnome HIG is more faithfully
> > > > implemented. But those code changes shouldn’t affect anything
> > > > generally in the Guide, and should auto update the context help
> > > > if it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then consider that
> > > > attempts to corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome
> > > > HIG, will produce such changes you’re thinking won’t happen.
> > > 
> > > Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the
> > > Gnome HIG? One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome
> > > dependencies. 
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > John Ralls
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

[Geert Janssens]

Op zondag 16 september 2018 18:56:47 CEST schreef John Ralls:
> > On Sep 16, 2018, at 9:46 AM, Geert Janssens 
> > wrote:> 
> > Op vrijdag 14 september 2018 21:37:58 CEST schreef Adrien Monteleone:
> >> Since John indicated there is not an effort to adhere to the current
> >> Gnome
> >> HIG, that statement should probably be removed. (as they don’t conform
> >> any
> >> longer)
> >> 
> >> But there are a few places where I think they can be simplified,
> >> particularly some items in the Actions menu should probably be moved to
> >> Tools.
> > 
> > Adrien,
> > 
> > There are certainly lots of improvements to make in user experience. And I
> > welcome improvements in that area in any case. We may not be gnome
> > oriented in the long term, but for now we're still using their toolkit
> > (gtk), so I'm not *against* making Gnome HIG inspired improvements
> > either.
> > 
> > In all the Gnome's HIG recommendations are fairly generic and while
> > reading
> > them I felt most of them are fairly universal. So even if we consider
> > switching gui toolkit in the future several of these general principles
> > will stand.
> > 
> > Which menu items would you move and why ?
> 
> To be clear, I'm also in favor of improving the UI, I just don't think we
> should do it because Gnome says so and I don't think we should be claiming
> in documentation that we pay much attention to anyone's HIG.
> 
+1

Geert


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Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

[John Ralls]

> On Sep 16, 2018, at 9:46 AM, Geert Janssens  
> wrote:
> 
> Op vrijdag 14 september 2018 21:37:58 CEST schreef Adrien Monteleone:
>> Since John indicated there is not an effort to adhere to the current Gnome
>> HIG, that statement should probably be removed. (as they don’t conform any
>> longer)
>> 
>> But there are a few places where I think they can be simplified,
>> particularly some items in the Actions menu should probably be moved to
>> Tools.
>> 
> Adrien,
> 
> There are certainly lots of improvements to make in user experience. And I 
> welcome improvements in that area in any case. We may not be gnome oriented 
> in 
> the long term, but for now we're still using their toolkit (gtk), so I'm not 
> *against* making Gnome HIG inspired improvements either.
> 
> In all the Gnome's HIG recommendations are fairly generic and while reading 
> them I felt most of them are fairly universal. So even if we consider 
> switching gui toolkit in the future several of these general principles will 
> stand.
> 
> Which menu items would you move and why ?

To be clear, I'm also in favor of improving the UI, I just don't think we 
should do it because Gnome says so and I don't think we should be claiming in 
documentation that we pay much attention to anyone's HIG.

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

[Geert Janssens]

Op vrijdag 14 september 2018 21:37:58 CEST schreef Adrien Monteleone:
> Since John indicated there is not an effort to adhere to the current Gnome
> HIG, that statement should probably be removed. (as they don’t conform any
> longer)
> 
> But there are a few places where I think they can be simplified,
> particularly some items in the Actions menu should probably be moved to
> Tools.
> 
Adrien,

There are certainly lots of improvements to make in user experience. And I 
welcome improvements in that area in any case. We may not be gnome oriented in 
the long term, but for now we're still using their toolkit (gtk), so I'm not 
*against* making Gnome HIG inspired improvements either.

In all the Gnome's HIG recommendations are fairly generic and while reading 
them I felt most of them are fairly universal. So even if we consider 
switching gui toolkit in the future several of these general principles will 
stand.

Which menu items would you move and why ?

Geert


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Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

[David T. via gnucash-devel]

That sounds like program development. I only do documentation. 

> On Sep 14, 2018, at 3:37 PM, Adrien Monteleone 
>  wrote:
> 
> Since John indicated there is not an effort to adhere to the current Gnome 
> HIG, that statement should probably be removed. (as they don’t conform any 
> longer)
> 
> But there are a few places where I think they can be simplified, particularly 
> some items in the Actions menu should probably be moved to Tools.
> 
> Regards,
> Adrien
> 
>> On Sep 14, 2018, at 1:57 PM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of the 
>> Gnome HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.
>> 
>> My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it says:
>> Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface 
>> Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance to 
>> many other GNOME applications. 
>> 
>> Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?
>> 
>> David
>> 
>>  
>> Previous discussion:
>> 
>> I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the future 
>> because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core and too many 
>> MVC violations to be able to implement a different toolkit.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone 
>>> mailto:adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at least with 
>>> respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used? What layout 
>>> principles? Or are those questions so far in the future as to not be worth 
>>> spending time allowing room for?
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Adrien
>>> 
 On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls >>> > wrote:
 
 
 
> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone 
> mailto:adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
>> mailto:gnucash-devel@gnucash.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> In other words, unless there is a change in function, there is no need 
>> to change the functional description. It seems to me that putting text 
>> that doesn’t change into code is essentially a one-time process. Not 
>> necessarily easy, but once completed, not particularly obtrusive. 
>> Putting the functional description into code has the added benefit, 
>> perhaps, of alerting developers to the fact that if they change a 
>> feature, the description (right there in the code) needs an update as 
>> well.
> 
> While the principles might not change, or even the name/label of certain 
> buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the fact that they are 
> buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will very likely change as the 
> Gnome HIG is more faithfully implemented. But those code changes 
> shouldn’t affect anything generally in the Guide, and should auto update 
> the context help if it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then 
> consider that attempts to corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome 
> HIG, will produce such changes you’re thinking won’t happen.
 
 Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the Gnome HIG? 
 One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome dependencies. 
 
 Regards,
 John Ralls
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
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Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

[Adrien Monteleone]

Since John indicated there is not an effort to adhere to the current Gnome HIG, 
that statement should probably be removed. (as they don’t conform any longer)

But there are a few places where I think they can be simplified, particularly 
some items in the Actions menu should probably be moved to Tools.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Sep 14, 2018, at 1:57 PM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of the 
> Gnome HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.
> 
> My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it says:
> Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface 
> Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance to many 
> other GNOME applications. 
> 
> Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?
> 
> David
> 
>  
> Previous discussion:
> 
> I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the future 
> because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core and too many 
> MVC violations to be able to implement a different toolkit.
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> 
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone 
>> mailto:adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at least with 
>> respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used? What layout 
>> principles? Or are those questions so far in the future as to not be worth 
>> spending time allowing room for?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Adrien
>> 
>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone 
 mailto:adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> 
 wrote:
 
 
 
> On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
> mailto:gnucash-devel@gnucash.org>> wrote:
> 
> In other words, unless there is a change in function, there is no need to 
> change the functional description. It seems to me that putting text that 
> doesn’t change into code is essentially a one-time process. Not 
> necessarily easy, but once completed, not particularly obtrusive. Putting 
> the functional description into code has the added benefit, perhaps, of 
> alerting developers to the fact that if they change a feature, the 
> description (right there in the code) needs an update as well.
 
 While the principles might not change, or even the name/label of certain 
 buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the fact that they are 
 buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will very likely change as the 
 Gnome HIG is more faithfully implemented. But those code changes shouldn’t 
 affect anything generally in the Guide, and should auto update the context 
 help if it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then consider that 
 attempts to corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome HIG, will 
 produce such changes you’re thinking won’t happen.
>>> 
>>> Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the Gnome HIG? 
>>> One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome dependencies. 
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> John Ralls
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

[John Ralls]

We're probably pretty compliant with the Gnome 2.0 HIG, but the Gnome HIG has 
changed over the years and GnuCash's UI hasn't. Just switching to Gtk3 probably 
got us some updates just because Gtk is what implements the HIG, but that would 
have been largely inadvertent.

For the purposes of the documentation I don't think we should be making any 
claims like that.

Regards,
John Ralls


> On Sep 14, 2018, at 11:57 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of the 
> Gnome HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.
> 
> My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it says:
> Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface 
> Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance to many 
> other GNOME applications. 
> 
> Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?
> 
> David
> 
>  
> Previous discussion:
> 
> I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the future 
> because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core and too many 
> MVC violations to be able to implement a different toolkit.
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> 
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone 
>> mailto:adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at least with 
>> respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used? What layout 
>> principles? Or are those questions so far in the future as to not be worth 
>> spending time allowing room for?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Adrien
>> 
>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone 
 mailto:adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> 
 wrote:
 
 
 
> On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
> mailto:gnucash-devel@gnucash.org>> wrote:
> 
> In other words, unless there is a change in function, there is no need to 
> change the functional description. It seems to me that putting text that 
> doesn’t change into code is essentially a one-time process. Not 
> necessarily easy, but once completed, not particularly obtrusive. Putting 
> the functional description into code has the added benefit, perhaps, of 
> alerting developers to the fact that if they change a feature, the 
> description (right there in the code) needs an update as well.
 
 While the principles might not change, or even the name/label of certain 
 buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the fact that they are 
 buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will very likely change as the 
 Gnome HIG is more faithfully implemented. But those code changes shouldn’t 
 affect anything generally in the Guide, and should auto update the context 
 help if it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then consider that 
 attempts to corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome HIG, will 
 produce such changes you’re thinking won’t happen.
>>> 
>>> Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the Gnome HIG? 
>>> One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome dependencies. 
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> John Ralls
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[GNC-dev] Gnome HIG

[David T. via gnucash-devel]

Hello,

In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of the Gnome 
HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.

My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it says:
Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface 
Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance to many 
other GNOME applications. 

Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?

David

 
Previous discussion:

I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the future 
because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core and too many MVC 
violations to be able to implement a different toolkit.

Regards,
John Ralls


> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone 
> mailto:adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at least with 
> respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used? What layout 
> principles? Or are those questions so far in the future as to not be worth 
> spending time allowing room for?
> 
> Regards,
> Adrien
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone 
>>> mailto:adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
 mailto:gnucash-devel@gnucash.org>> wrote:
 
 In other words, unless there is a change in function, there is no need to 
 change the functional description. It seems to me that putting text that 
 doesn’t change into code is essentially a one-time process. Not 
 necessarily easy, but once completed, not particularly obtrusive. Putting 
 the functional description into code has the added benefit, perhaps, of 
 alerting developers to the fact that if they change a feature, the 
 description (right there in the code) needs an update as well.
>>> 
>>> While the principles might not change, or even the name/label of certain 
>>> buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the fact that they are 
>>> buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will very likely change as the Gnome 
>>> HIG is more faithfully implemented. But those code changes shouldn’t affect 
>>> anything generally in the Guide, and should auto update the context help if 
>>> it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then consider that attempts to 
>>> corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome HIG, will produce such 
>>> changes you’re thinking won’t happen.
>> 
>> Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the Gnome HIG? 
>> One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome dependencies. 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
> 




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