Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[jeffrey black]

On 05/07/2018 01:39 AM, Karen Stingel wrote:
> This is a Fix of my previous thread ... Re: gnucash-user Digest, Vol 
> 182, Issue 8,
> apologies for not clarifying the subject line last time.
>
> How does gnc handle the Case of a VISA Debit card?
> Technically, this is a BANK account with a VISA enabled card and a 
> $0.00 Credit Limit
> Should it just be created as a normal BANK account type?
>
> Are there any plans to include this as a new Asset Account type in 
> future editions of gnc?
>
> Are Python Bindings enabled in the Windows binaries, and could this 
> Account type be added via writing a Python script?
>
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Karen:

Unless for some specific reason you need to monitor the use of your 
debit card(s), don't.  Your transactions related to the debit card 
should show up on your bank statement.  The only reasonable case I can 
think of where a separate account is warranted is using re-loadable pay 
as you go cards.

Instead, I recommend utilizing the "Num" field to identify how each 
transaction was handled.  You can easily design your own schema.  In my 
case I use:

 for checks (the actual check number)

dbt for debit transactions (things like buying gasoline)

eft for electronic fund transfers (transfer electronically to a merchant 
and ach transactions that are not paid by check)

txfr to transfer money between accounts within the same financial 
institution

dep for deposits.

atm for well atm transactions.

Just my 2 cents worth.


--JEffrey Black M.B.A.




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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[Adrien Monteleone]

Karen,

VISA is just a payment network. They are not a credit card company. They don’t 
issue cards, or extend credit to anyone. Banks do that part and VISA allows 
them to use the VISA brand on the bank’s cards. (which means payments will go 
through the VISA network) Those cards can come in many forms. You’re probably 
most familiar with the credit type associated with the brand, but branded debit 
cards have been around since at least the early 90s. (I had one in ’92) Branded 
gift/pre-paid cards are also now ubiquitous and are available at nearly any 
retailer, grocery store and convenience store. MasterCard and AMEX also have 
branded cards. I’m not aware of Discover having any cards other than the credit 
type. (also VISA/MasterCard is pretty much the same company now)

On that note, here’s how you handle each type:

Credit - create a Credit Card type account. (you can just use a plain liability 
account if you like, but GnuCash has a Credit Card type for you)

Debit - nothing special. It is merely a means to access your 
checking/savings/money-market/other account, so just create one GnuCash account 
for each real-world account. The fact that the account has an associated card 
doesn’t affect this.

Gift/Pre-paid - Create a Current Asset account, potentially one for each card.

I have mine set up as Assets:Current Assets:Prepaid Expenses:Gift Cards & 
Pre-paid Cards, and then under that various purposes like ‘restaurants’, 
‘groceries’, ‘shops’, ‘movies’, et cetera, with an account under each of those 
for each individual card. (so I can track the remaining balance easily) Some 
people lump all their pre-paid cards together since they are usually not 
reloaded (though you can) and discarded when empty. I don’t mind having them 
separate, not just because I don’t usually spend them all in one shot and like 
to see the balance at a glance, but also because I have several that are 
received as recurring gifts so the GnuCash account tends to hang around for 
many years.

Regards,
Adrien
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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 5/7/2018 8:45 PM, randix wrote:

Did VISA debit cards do somethin' to you as a child, why are you pickin' on
them (that reply is to no one in particular, only the thread, so pleeze, no
one get defensive)?

A debit card [to me] is a non-existent entity, it has no business having its
own "account".

My schwab checking account has a VISA debit card


THAT is what the question was about. YOUR debit card is associated with 
a checking account. That is one common type. But there are OTHER sorts 
of debit cards. There are ones associated with what are more like 
savings accounts (no checks, the debit card is used for all 
withdrawals). There are "free standing" debit cards (pre-paid debit 
cards) that are stand alone, associated with no bank account and which 
should be handled like "gift cards", just not tied to a particular 
vendor. And then there are "debit cards" associated to virtual accounts 
<< some agency might be adding so much per month to the debit card 
balance >>


YOUR type of debit card would/should have no existence in the CoA. Some 
of these other sorts (I will avoid the word "type") would.


Michael D Novack

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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[Liz]

On Tue, 8 May 2018 11:35:09 +1000
Karen Stingel  wrote:

>I suppose the Account(s) would be most like case #2, they are
>individual Bank Accounts, with own Statements, and VISA enabled
> card as opposed to the old ATM card for withdrawing funds, no cheques
> - it was more or less the VISA bit that threw me


Karen, feel free to ask questions. 
No question is silly, although it may be basic, without basics you
can't build your understanding of finance, banking, bookkeeping and
accounting.

Liz
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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[Karen Stingel]

   I suppose the Account(s) would be most like case #2, they are
   individual Bank Accounts, with own Statements, and VISA enabled card as
   opposed to the old ATM card for withdrawing funds, no cheques - it was
   more or less the VISA bit that threw me

   On 2018-05-08 09:27, Mike or Penny Novack
   '[1]stepbystepf...@dialup4less.com' via 33Mail wrote:

 On 5/7/2018 10:53 AM, Karen Stingel wrote:

 Thanks everyone for the responses, that things cleared up a lot
 The reason for my original Query is that my bank actually calls
 these transaction accounts
 "VISA Debit" and I wasn't sure where in the Tree they should go, as
 VISA is usually a Credit
 account and therefore a Liability.
 Since I viewed them as regular Bank accounts (not all have their
 cards issued at this time),
 I have created them as BANK accounts, but I wanted to check that was
 the correct place in
 the CoA before starting a new Book.

 We could be of much more help (advice how to handle) if you were
 able to describe for us what you are talking about. There are
 different types (oh dear, that word again) of "debit cards". Here
 are some possibilities.
 1) You have a checking account. In addition to being able to write
 checks against this account you also have been issued a debit card
 against this account. This allows you to use the card for purchases
 that would otherwise require a credit card. The TOTAL limit on your
 card is the "funds available" in the account just like with checks
 but there may be a transaction size limit and a daily limit.
 Method -- no additional account involved. Treat transactions
 involving the card just as it they were checks except you probably
 lack a check number for them.
 2) Like "1" except you have no checks.
 Method -- handle like "1"
 3) Like "1" except not your bank account but a virtual account.
 Every month some agency adds an amount to your card balance. EBT
 cards, for example.
  Method -- I'd create an asset account for this even though it
 isn't really "mine" in the normal sense.
 4) Gift cards, pre-paid debit cards, refund cards, etc.  These might
 be restricted to a particular vendor.
  Method --- I'd create a "type" of asset for these as long as
 this is understood as simple a parent under assets in the CoA. I'd
 probably put pre-paid debit cards under current assets but might
 want to think hard about how to treat ones that were restricted as
 to use.
 Something else? Describe.
 Michael
  Method --

References

   1. mailto:stepbystepf...@dialup4less.com
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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[randix]

Did VISA debit cards do somethin' to you as a child, why are you pickin' on
them (that reply is to no one in particular, only the thread, so pleeze, no
one get defensive)?

A debit card [to me] is a non-existent entity, it has no business having its
own "account".

My schwab checking account has a VISA debit card (yippee, so
impressive...)... if i use it to buy a hamburger at Steve's Burgers, I enter
it in the schwab checking account as "Steve's Burgers", I think that
deserves a "duh"...

If I use the debit card for ATM withdrawals, I call it ATM-23, ATM-42.50,
ATM-43, ATM-203, etc., regardless what ATM machine I decide to hug.  My
gnucash entry automatically enters the atm charge into an expense account
for atm charges, and pushes the remaining bucks into my cash account (which
IS deserving of it's own account).  After years of doing this, I have every
combination covered.  So ATM-23 means $3 bank charge and $20 debited from my
checking and pushed into my "cash" account.

Course Schwab reimburses me for all ATM charges at the end of each month, so
that acts as a credit to my expense account for bank atm charges...

Works great.  As much as I luv my debit card, sorry, debit card, you don't
deserve your own place... :) Now if you had brunette hair, about 5' 7"
and we'd talk.



--
Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 5/7/2018 10:36 AM, John Ralls wrote:



On May 7, 2018, at 6:37 AM, Mike or Penny Novack 
 wrote:
HOWEVER -- you have raised a more general question, perhaps misunderstanding something. 
The "built in default" accounts that come with gnucash CoA skeletons are just 
for convenience satisfying the needs of many new users. There is nothing magic about the 
types of accounts included, either that they would be necessary or sufficient. If you 
find you need another category of asset accounts (another sub tree under assets) simply 
add that. Same with liabilities and equity (and thus for income and expense).

That’s not quite right. The account *types* are hard coded and control program 
behavior: For example, types STOCK and FUND have a different register display 
from the rest. There is neither UI nor API for adding types.

Regards,
John Ralls



Misunderstanding. The term "type" being used to mean different things.

The original question was using "type" in the sense I was answering the 
question. Things like "gift cards", "pre-paid debit cards, bank account 
associated debit cards, etc. are not "types" in the sense you mean 
(STOCK, FUND, etc.)


Assets of type (sense 1) stock, fund, etc. not the same thing as 
accounts of type (sense2) STOCK, FUND. << one could keep books under 
gnucash involving assets of type (sense1) stocks ad funds without using 
the built in (sense2) types. though it might help doing that to have 
learned bookkeeping in the old pen and ink on paper days >>


Michael D Novack

--
There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the equality 
of the grave.

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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[Karen Stingel]

Thanks everyone for the responses, that things cleared up a lot

The reason for my original Query is that my bank actually calls these 
transaction accounts
"VISA Debit" and I wasn't sure where in the Tree they should go, as VISA 
is usually a Credit

account and therefore a Liability.

Since I viewed them as regular Bank accounts (not all have their cards 
issued at this time),
I have created them as BANK accounts, but I wanted to check that was the 
correct place in

the CoA before starting a new Book.


On 2018-05-08 00:32, David Carlson 'david.carlson@gmail.com' via 
33Mail wrote:


On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 1:32 AM, Karen Stingel > wrote:


   How does gnc handle the Case of a VISA Debit card?
   Technically, this is a BANK account with a VISA enabled card and a
   $0.00 Credit Limit
   Should it just be created as a normal BANK account type?
   Are there any plans to include this as a new Asset Account type in
   future editions of gnc?
   Are Python Bindings enabled in the Windows binaries, and could this
   Account type be added via writing a Python script?
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Karen,

I do not give my debit card an account because I just use it as a 
plastic checkbook on my checking account.  Thus I just enter a 
transaction from the checking account, using a keyword 'Debit' in the 
check number box.


David C


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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[John Ralls]

> On May 7, 2018, at 6:37 AM, Mike or Penny Novack 
>  wrote:
> HOWEVER -- you have raised a more general question, perhaps misunderstanding 
> something. The "built in default" accounts that come with gnucash CoA 
> skeletons are just for convenience satisfying the needs of many new users. 
> There is nothing magic about the types of accounts included, either that they 
> would be necessary or sufficient. If you find you need another category of 
> asset accounts (another sub tree under assets) simply add that. Same with 
> liabilities and equity (and thus for income and expense).

That’s not quite right. The account *types* are hard coded and control program 
behavior: For example, types STOCK and FUND have a different register display 
from the rest. There is neither UI nor API for adding types.

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 5/7/2018 2:39 AM, Karen Stingel wrote:
This is a Fix of my previous thread ... Re: gnucash-user Digest, Vol 
182, Issue 8,

apologies for not clarifying the subject line last time.

How does gnc handle the Case of a VISA Debit card?
Technically, this is a BANK account with a VISA enabled card and a 
$0.00 Credit Limit

Should it just be created as a normal BANK account type?

Are there any plans to include this as a new Asset Account type in 
future editions of gnc?


As others have already answered, if this is just a payment card 
associated with an existing bank account (just another way of making 
withdrawals from THAT account) no account to be added. But if it is a 
separate account (with some institution) then yes. Thus you might have 
an asset account category for "gift cards", "prepaid debit cards", etc.


HOWEVER -- you have raised a more general question, perhaps 
misunderstanding something. The "built in default" accounts that come 
with gnucash CoA skeletons are just for convenience satisfying the needs 
of many new users. There is nothing magic about the types of accounts 
included, either that they would be necessary or sufficient. If you find 
you need another category of asset accounts (another sub tree under 
assets) simply add that. Same with liabilities and equity (and thus for 
income and expense).


Your CoA is YOUR CoA specific to YOUR needs.

Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[David T. via gnucash-user]

In my experience (admittedly limited), a debit card is a means to extract funds 
from an account—not an account on its own. Considered this way, it is simply a 
variant of a check, or of writing a withdrawal slip and handing it over to a 
teller (for those who remember those days). There is no need for a separate 
account type; “Bank” or “Asset” suffice. 

Rick’s method will certainly work, although I have never bothered with that 
level of detail.

David T.

> On May 7, 2018, at 1:01 PM, Rick Copple  
> wrote:
> 
> On 05/07/2018 01:39 AM, Karen Stingel wrote:
>> How does gnc handle the Case of a VISA Debit card?
>> Technically, this is a BANK account with a VISA enabled card and a $0.00 
>> Credit Limit
>> Should it just be created as a normal BANK account type? 
> 
> How I normally handle mine is any transaction I make from my debit card, I 
> enter as a transaction in my bank account, usually using the word "Debit" for 
> the ref. number field. Of course, you could use any code word there you 
> wanted (ex. "Visa", "MC", "CCard", etc.) as long as you are consistent in 
> using the same term. But there is no reason to complicate things by creating 
> this as a separate bank account from the one your funds come out of. As to 
> the rest, I'll let the developers answer those, though I don't see the point 
> in not using the create a new account function in GNUCash itself to create 
> any new accounts you need, or to create a specialized function for handling 
> debit cards.
> 
> -- 
> Rick Copple
> Window Cleaning Specialist
> 
> 
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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[prl]

On 7/05/2018 16:39, Karen Stingel wrote:
This is a Fix of my previous thread ... Re: gnucash-user Digest, Vol 
182, Issue 8,

apologies for not clarifying the subject line last time.

How does gnc handle the Case of a VISA Debit card?
Technically, this is a BANK account with a VISA enabled card and a 
$0.00 Credit Limit

Should it just be created as a normal BANK account type?

Are there any plans to include this as a new Asset Account type in 
future editions of gnc?

I'm not sure why you'd want anything other that a Bank Account account type.

I have a bank savings account on which I can use a VISA debit card and 
draw cheques, and it's all on one statement, so it wouldn't make sense 
to me to have a separate register for it, except, perhaps as a 
sub-account, but I think that unnecessarily complicates things.


What is arguably missing is a "Debit card" Action on the transaction, 
but I just make a note of Visa transactions in the description.


Peter
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Re: [GNC] Handling VISA Debit Accounts

[Rick Copple]

On 05/07/2018 01:39 AM, Karen Stingel wrote:

How does gnc handle the Case of a VISA Debit card?
Technically, this is a BANK account with a VISA enabled card and a 
$0.00 Credit Limit
Should it just be created as a normal BANK account type? 


How I normally handle mine is any transaction I make from my debit card, 
I enter as a transaction in my bank account, usually using the word 
"Debit" for the ref. number field. Of course, you could use any code 
word there you wanted (ex. "Visa", "MC", "CCard", etc.) as long as you 
are consistent in using the same term. But there is no reason to 
complicate things by creating this as a separate bank account from the 
one your funds come out of. As to the rest, I'll let the developers 
answer those, though I don't see the point in not using the create a new 
account function in GNUCash itself to create any new accounts you need, 
or to create a specialized function for handling debit cards.


--
Rick Copple
Window Cleaning Specialist


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