date:20090507




On May 7, 1:11 am, Martin Albrecht m...@informatik.uni-bremen.de
wrote:
  Mon May 11:  fix fallout;        malb fix os x libsingular (?)

  Tue May 12:  sage-4.0.rc1.tar

  Wed May 13:

  Thu May 14:  sage-4.0.final.tar

  Fri May 15:  Release sage-4.0.tar.

 Well, my plan was to update Singular to 3.1 and PolyBoRi to 0.6 during the
 week mentioned above and I was hoping this would make it into Sage 4.0. Of
 course, I'll also try to address the OSX libSingular thing.

All three of those things should be awesome. We will see how this
meshes with the stabilization of 4.0, but in either case a quick 4.0.1
should follow where we want to concentrate on getting all components
up to date so that the next Debian packaging is really up to date.

Re PolyBoRi: I would like to see the boost light split off into its
own spkg so we can update it easily. Bumping to something much more
current would also be a good idea, but I can help out here.

 Martin

Cheers,

Michael

 --
 name: Martin Albrecht
 _pgp:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x8EF0DC99
 _otr: 47F43D1A 5D68C36F 468BAEBA 640E8856 D7951CCF
 _www:http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~malb
 _jab: martinralbre...@jabber.ccc.de
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[sage-devel] Re: Sage 4.0 plan




On May 7, 12:55 am, davidloeffler dave.loeff...@gmail.com wrote:
 Can I use this opportunity to request some reviews for modular forms
 patches? I decided I'd spend a few afternoons squashing as many easy
 modular forms buglets as I could, with the result that there is now a
 bunch of tickets that are [with patch, needs review]. It would be
 cool to get some of these into 4.0, since otherwise they will
 inevitably end up conflicting with stuff people do at SD15, and we all
 know how tedious it is to rebase patches.

Yep, let's get those reviewed and in. Note that we will meet in IRC
Saturday to review  merge, so that might be a good time to poke some
people to do reviews. I think Craig has started the review of some of
those tickets, so we are on the way already.

 Regards,

 David


Cheers,

Michael
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[sage-devel] Re: Sage 4.0 plan


I spend some time tonight on the gcc 4.4.0 porting problem and there
is only little work left to be done: I had resolved all issues in Sage
3.1.2, but neglected to merge all the fixed into subsequent releases.

Issues from 3.1.2 (3.4.2):

 * gmp (gone in MPIR)
 * ntl (Fixed in ntl-5.4.2.p7.spkg, need to add spkg-check before
posting spkg)
 * fplll (update to 3.0.11 - or maybe a future 3.0.12 due to bug that
already existed in 2.x.)
 * polybori - fixes:
* src/boost_1_34_1.cropped/boost/mpl/aux_/full_lambda.hpp +230
* src/boost_1_34_1.cropped/boost/mpl/apply.hpp +138
* src/boost_1_34_1.cropped/boost/mpl/bind.hpp +364
* src/boost_1_34_1.cropped/boost/mpl/bind.hpp +531
* src/boost_1_34_1.cropped/boost/mpl/apply_wrap.hpp +81
* src/boost_1_34_1.cropped/boost/mpl/apply_wrap.hpp +173
 * clisp - *boom* - might be build problem - will use ecl in
4.0.alpha0 anyway

The main issue I ran into was a bug in libfplll that would crash the
doctest with some probability. The bug is also in the previous fplll
release and I have send a proposed fix upstream, so I am confident we
will have gcc 4.4 support in Sage 4.0. At least two people have either
complained in IRC, so the demand seems to clearly exist. :)

Cheers,

Michael
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[sage-devel] Re: Sage 3.4.2 released (and this time it is the final one)

2009-05-07 Thread Golam Mortuza Hossain


Hi Michael,

On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:37 AM, mabshoff mabsh...@googlemail.com wrote:

 All the bits are in the usual place in

   http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mabshoff/release-cycles-3.4.2/

I am wondering whether pre-compiled binaries of sage-3.4.2 for
Ubuntu and others will be available? I am thinking of testing
Mike Hansen's patches for new symbolics which should be applied
on top of 3.4.2. Given compiling sage from source takes really long in
typical laptops, it would be helpful to have pre-compiled sage
binaries of 3.4.2.

Thanks,
Golam

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[sage-devel] Re: Sage 3.4.2 released (and this time it is the final one)


On May 7, 6:41 am, Golam Mortuza Hossain gmhoss...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Michael,

Hi Golam,

 On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:37 AM, mabshoff mabsh...@googlemail.com wrote:

  All the bits are in the usual place in

   http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mabshoff/release-cycles-3.4.2/

 I am wondering whether pre-compiled binaries of sage-3.4.2 for
 Ubuntu and others will be available? I am thinking of testing
 Mike Hansen's patches for new symbolics which should be applied
 on top of 3.4.2. Given compiling sage from source takes really long in
 typical laptops, it would be helpful to have pre-compiled sage
 binaries of 3.4.2.

Binaries have been build and should show up in the next 24 hours on
the main sage site and then mirror out. We still don't have any Ubuntu
9.04 binaries since the build farm didn't have them added yet, but I
hope they will show up shortly. I believe we have at least 8.04LTS and
maybe 8.10, but I would need to check and I am about to go to sleep :)

 Thanks,
 Golam

Cheers,

Michael
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[sage-devel] loads(dumps(G)) for G a graphics object

2009-05-07 Thread kcrisman


Dear Devel,

I am hoping to help the push to 75% by adding some doctests to some of
the plotting primitives.  But for some reason, the following always
occurs:

sage: G = some graphics object
sage: G == loads(dumps(G))
False

Nonetheless, no matter how hard I try, I cannot actually find a
difference between G and loads(dumps(G)) when I view both of them,
look at xmin(), options(), etc.  Why aren't they ==?

In any case, in plot.py and plot_field.py this is already worked
around by
sage: G = plot(something)
sage: H = loads(dumps(G))
so I'll go with that if there are no objections, but I would much
prefer == if possible.  Incidentally, sage -coverage does not complain
about the current H=loads(dumps(G)) test.

Thanks,
- kcrisman
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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0

2009-05-07 Thread Jaap Spies


Mike Hansen wrote:

Hi Mike
[...]
 If you want to try the code out, there is an spkg and two patches in
 http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mhansen/symbolics/.  These should
 install and apply cleanly to Sage 3.4.2.
 

I tried applying to sage-3.4.2, got:
[j...@paix sage-3.4.2]$ ./sage
--
| Sage Version 3.4.2, Release Date: 2009-05-04   |
| Type notebook() for the GUI, and license() for information.|
--
---
ImportError   Traceback (most recent call last)

/home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/IPython/ipmaker.pyc
 in force_import(modname)
  64 reload(sys.modules[modname])
  65 else:
--- 66 __import__(modname)
  67
  68

/home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/bin/ipy_profile_sage.py in module()
   5 preparser(True)
   6
 7 import sage.all_cmdline
   8 sage.all_cmdline._init_cmdline(globals())
   9

/home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sage/all_cmdline.py
 in module()
  12 try:
  13
--- 14 from sage.all import *
  15 from sage.calculus.predefined import x
  16 preparser(on=True)

/home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sage/all.py 
in module()
  90 from sage.functions.all  import *
  91
--- 92 import sage.symbolic.pynac   # This must come before Calculus -- it 
initializes the Pynac library.
  93 from sage.calculus.all   import *
  94 from sage.server.all import *

ImportError: libpynac-0.1.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or 
directory
Error importing ipy_profile_sage - perhaps you should run %upgrade?
WARNING: Loading of ipy_profile_sage failed.

What's wrong?

Jaap


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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0




On May 7, 7:16 am, Jaap Spies j.sp...@hccnet.nl wrote:
 Mike Hansen wrote:

 Hi Mike

SNIP

 ImportError: libpynac-0.1.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file 
 or directory
 Error importing ipy_profile_sage - perhaps you should run %upgrade?
 WARNING: Loading of ipy_profile_sage failed.

 What's wrong?

(a) There are some known libtool problems. Please check the
pynac-1.1.6.spkg build for you.

or

(b) sage -b does not rebuild all the needed files since some of the
new extensions might not depend on the pynac header, but I haven't
read Mike's patch yet.

 Jaap

Cheers,

Michael
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[sage-devel] Re: Sage 4.0 plan


One more thing: I have updated http://wiki.sagemath.org/plan/sage-4.0
in the wiki with most of the info here, but it might be a good idea
to

 (a) keep it current as things develop
 (b) add all missing info about projects, i.e. who is working on
coverage, etc
 (c) clean it up in general

Signing off :)

Cheers,

Michael
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[sage-devel] ideas involving sage+maple?

2009-05-07 Thread David Joyner


Hi:

I just want to pass along some ideas I got from Sage developers at the recent
NSF-CDI conference in Rhode Island. I don't know how feasible they are.

(1) One Maple developer suggested that the pexpect interface Sage-Maple
could be improved using the Openmaple API
(http://www.maplesoft.com/applications/view.aspx?SID=4383).
Instead of passing strings back-and-forth, you simply pass pointers,
which he said would be
faster.

(2) Another person suggested that if one was to ask for Maple support
in any sort of collaborative
project (Hoon Hong suggested that research on interfaces is important
and needs further development,
for example), the best person to ask would be the guy in charge of
R+D, whose name I have
forgotten. Is there any objection to trying to pursue this angle? (I
have no idea how
fruitful it will be, but IMHO it can't hurt to ask.)

- David Joyner

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[sage-devel] Re: papers using Sage


David Joyner wrote:
 Hello:
 
 At a recent NSF workshop
 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~kaltofen/NSF_WS_ECCAD09_Itinerary.html
 Hoon Hong (managing editor of the J Symb Comp) asked for a list of
 papers written using Sage
 by students. The obvious answer was to look at
 http://www.sagemath.org/library/publications.html
 but (a) there is no way for him to tell who is a student and who isn't
 (b) I know that there are
 papers missing (eg, Boothby-Bradshaw and Stein-Pernet since they were
 actually referenced at
 ECCAD the following day).
 
 So, I'm requesting 2 things:
 (1) if you have a paper using Sage (*especially* if you are a student)
 which is not on
 http://www.sagemath.org/library/publications.html
 can you *please* send at least the title to this list (or to Willaim
 or Harald me, and I'll forward it
 to Harard),


We wrote this paper (and the accompanying preprint containing our code) 
in an early-graduate research class by Leslie Hogben at Iowa State 
University.  This class was designed to introduce new or nearly-new 
graduate students to early research.  The class picked up Sage quite 
quickly and they have since been using Sage in their other classwork and 
research.

The paper (Leslie Hogben is the professor teaching the class, Jason 
Grout is a postdoc at Iowa State, and all the rest are graduate students 
at Iowa State University):

Table of minimum ranks of graphs of order at most 7 and selected optimal 
matrices.  Laura DeLoss, Jason Grout, Leslie Hogben, Tracy McKay, Jason 
Smith, Geoff Tims.  Submitted.  Preprint available at 
http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.0870.

The preprint containing our source code (which will eventually be 
incorporated into Sage, probably this summer):

Program for calculating bounds on the minimum rank of a graph using 
Sage. http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.1616.  Laura DeLoss, Jason Grout, Tracy 
McKay, Jason Smith, Geoff Tims.



 (2) can someone who knows more people than I do indicate which
 reference numbers on
  have an author who
 is a student (eg,
 number 22 since I think Steven Sivek is a grad student(?)).

My references [26] and [27]  were done while I was a graduate student at 
Brigham Young University.  [25] and [37] are revised chapters from my 
dissertation and were submitted while I was a postdoc at Iowa State 
University.


Thanks,

Jason


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[sage-devel] Re: papers using Sage


Jason Grout wrote:
 David Joyner wrote:
 Hello:

 At a recent NSF workshop
 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~kaltofen/NSF_WS_ECCAD09_Itinerary.html
 Hoon Hong (managing editor of the J Symb Comp) asked for a list of
 papers written using Sage
 by students. The obvious answer was to look at
 http://www.sagemath.org/library/publications.html
 but (a) there is no way for him to tell who is a student and who isn't
 (b) I know that there are
 papers missing (eg, Boothby-Bradshaw and Stein-Pernet since they were
 actually referenced at
 ECCAD the following day).

 So, I'm requesting 2 things:
 (1) if you have a paper using Sage (*especially* if you are a student)
 which is not on
 http://www.sagemath.org/library/publications.html
 can you *please* send at least the title to this list (or to Willaim
 or Harald me, and I'll forward it
 to Harard),
 
 
 We wrote this paper (and the accompanying preprint containing our code) 
 in an early-graduate research class by Leslie Hogben at Iowa State 
 University.  This class was designed to introduce new or nearly-new 
 graduate students to early research.  The class picked up Sage quite 
 quickly and they have since been using Sage in their other classwork and 
 research.
 
 The paper (Leslie Hogben is the professor teaching the class, Jason 
 Grout is a postdoc at Iowa State, and all the rest are graduate students 
 at Iowa State University):
 
 Table of minimum ranks of graphs of order at most 7 and selected optimal 
 matrices.  Laura DeLoss, Jason Grout, Leslie Hogben, Tracy McKay, Jason 
 Smith, Geoff Tims.  Submitted.  Preprint available at 
 http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.0870.


Sorry; the above reference is the *data* for the following submitted 
paper.  The submitted paper, below, is not on arxiv.

L. DeLoss, J. Grout, L. Hogben, T. McKay, J. Smith, G. Tims. Techniques 
for determining the minimum rank of a small graph.

 
 The preprint containing our source code (which will eventually be 
 incorporated into Sage, probably this summer):
 
 Program for calculating bounds on the minimum rank of a graph using 
 Sage. http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.1616.  Laura DeLoss, Jason Grout, Tracy 
 McKay, Jason Smith, Geoff Tims.
 
 

So really, you could consider the three references above as part of the 
same project.  The submitted paper:


L. DeLoss, J. Grout, L. Hogben, T. McKay, J. Smith, G. Tims. Techniques 
for determining the minimum rank of a small graph.

The data:

Table of minimum ranks of graphs of order at most 7 and selected optimal
matrices.  Laura DeLoss, Jason Grout, Leslie Hogben, Tracy McKay, Jason
Smith, Geoff Tims.  Available at http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.0870.

and the program (which will be contributed to Sage):

Program for calculating bounds on the minimum rank of a graph using
Sage. http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.1616.  Laura DeLoss, Jason Grout, Tracy
McKay, Jason Smith, Geoff Tims.



Thanks,

Jason


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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0

2009-05-07 Thread Burcin Erocal


On Thu, 7 May 2009 04:10:30 -0700
Mike Hansen mhan...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 Hello all,
 
 I've been doing a lot of work recent trying to get the new symbolics
 ready for Sage 4.0.  With 4.0 due out in 8 days, we're trying to do
 the final push.

Thank you very much for working on this. I am really amazed to see how
you rebased all the pynac patches from William and me to version 1.4.3. 

 There are currently a lot of printing errors since Pynac/GiNaC prints
 expressions differently than Maxima does.  Some things still need
 doctests, and there are a few small features left to implement.  If
 you have some free time in the next few days and want to help out,
 it'd be greatly appreciated.
 
 If you want to try the code out, there is an spkg and two patches in
 http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mhansen/symbolics/.  These should
 install and apply cleanly to Sage 3.4.2.

I guess the first patch is a collection of my patches sitting on trac,
so I didn't read it. Is this right?

Some minor comments after reading the 2nd patch:

 * does new_Expression_from_GEx() really need the new parent parameter?

 * how does the new _convert() function relate to the _eval_self() I
   defined to handle numerical approximations? 

 * in the _factor_list() method, the line if op is not None: seems
   superfluous 

 * in the initialization of SFunction, I had removed the find_function()
   call, since you don't want to overwrite a previously user created
   function which might be present in previously created expressions.
   It seems that your patch adds it back.

 * I don't think SFunction should have a .serial() method. It is useful
   for debugging but it shouldn't be exposed to users. 

 * can we not use from sage.all import ... in function.pyx?

 * why is SR.pi() necessary?

 * the docstring for SR.var() is confusing, since you use it to create
   multiple symbolic variables, and return expressions if the argument
   is already an expression

 * I don't see immediately why the printing functions are in the
   parent, and not the elements. I.e., why is printing deferred to
   SR._repr_element() and SR._latex_element()?


As I pointed out earlier on IRC, I don't think it's necessary to patch
pynac at all for the constant evaluation. You can just pass in any
python object which implements a .numerical_approx() method (the python
object for the constant itself?) to the constant constructor. This
would also remove the need for a lookup table for numerical
approximation of constants.


This is the first time I saw the default_variable() function in the previous 
symbolics code. I suggest that this is deprecated, and the functions that need 
this require explicitly stating variables. Maybe this discussion should take 
place in a different thread though, since it's independent of your patch.


Thanks again for your time and effort.


Cheers,
Burcin

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[sage-devel] Re: ideas involving sage+maple?

2009-05-07 Thread Burcin Erocal


On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:32:56 -0400
David Joyner wdjoy...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 Hi:
 
 I just want to pass along some ideas I got from Sage developers at
 the recent NSF-CDI conference in Rhode Island. I don't know how
 feasible they are.
 
 (1) One Maple developer suggested that the pexpect interface
 Sage-Maple could be improved using the Openmaple API
 (http://www.maplesoft.com/applications/view.aspx?SID=4383).
 Instead of passing strings back-and-forth, you simply pass pointers,
 which he said would be
 faster.
IANAL, and I don't want to start a license discussion thread again, but
binary linking to Maple might be a violation of the GPL.

 (2) Another person suggested that if one was to ask for Maple support
 in any sort of collaborative
 project (Hoon Hong suggested that research on interfaces is important
 and needs further development,
 for example), the best person to ask would be the guy in charge of
 R+D, whose name I have
 forgotten. Is there any objection to trying to pursue this angle? (I
 have no idea how
 fruitful it will be, but IMHO it can't hurt to ask.)

The director of RD at Maple is Juergen Gerhard. 

What would be the proposed project in this case? Improving the
interface between Sage and Maple?


Thanks for the information about the workshop.


Cheers,
Burcin

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[sage-devel] Re: ideas involving sage+maple?

2009-05-07 Thread David Joyner


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Burcin Erocal bur...@erocal.org wrote:

 On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:32:56 -0400
 David Joyner wdjoy...@gmail.com wrote:


 Hi:

 I just want to pass along some ideas I got from Sage developers at
 the recent NSF-CDI conference in Rhode Island. I don't know how
 feasible they are.


...


 (2) Another person suggested that if one was to ask for Maple support
 in any sort of collaborative
 project (Hoon Hong suggested that research on interfaces is important
 and needs further development,
 for example), the best person to ask would be the guy in charge of
 R+D, whose name I have
 forgotten. Is there any objection to trying to pursue this angle? (I
 have no idea how
 fruitful it will be, but IMHO it can't hurt to ask.)

 The director of RD at Maple is Juergen Gerhard.


Thanks!



 What would be the proposed project in this case? Improving the
 interface between Sage and Maple?


Yes,I think that Hoon Hong's suggestion was to try to try to cooperate
through the
common interest of achieving better interfaces.
.




 Thanks for the information about the workshop.


 Cheers,
 Burcin

 


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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0


Jaap Spies wrote:
 Mike Hansen wrote:
 
 Hi Mike
 [...]
 If you want to try the code out, there is an spkg and two patches in
 http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mhansen/symbolics/.  These should
 install and apply cleanly to Sage 3.4.2.

 
 I tried applying to sage-3.4.2, got:
 [j...@paix sage-3.4.2]$ ./sage
 --
 | Sage Version 3.4.2, Release Date: 2009-05-04   |
 | Type notebook() for the GUI, and license() for information.|
 --
 ---
 ImportError   Traceback (most recent call last)
 
 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/IPython/ipmaker.pyc
  in force_import(modname)
   64 reload(sys.modules[modname])
   65 else:
 --- 66 __import__(modname)
   67
   68
 
 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/bin/ipy_profile_sage.py in module()
5 preparser(True)
6
  7 import sage.all_cmdline
8 sage.all_cmdline._init_cmdline(globals())
9
 
 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sage/all_cmdline.py
  in module()
   12 try:
   13
 --- 14 from sage.all import *
   15 from sage.calculus.predefined import x
   16 preparser(on=True)
 
 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sage/all.py 
 in module()
   90 from sage.functions.all  import *
   91
 --- 92 import sage.symbolic.pynac   # This must come before Calculus -- it 
 initializes the Pynac library.
   93 from sage.calculus.all   import *
   94 from sage.server.all import *
 
 ImportError: libpynac-0.1.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file 
 or directory
 Error importing ipy_profile_sage - perhaps you should run %upgrade?
 WARNING: Loading of ipy_profile_sage failed.
 
 What's wrong?
 

I got a similar error, but a different traceback (ubuntu 9.04, 32 bit, 
sage 3.4.2)

$ sage
--
| Sage Version 3.4.2, Release Date: 2009-05-05   |
| Type notebook() for the GUI, and license() for information.|
--
---
ImportError   Traceback (most recent call last)

/home/jason/sage/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/IPython/ipmaker.pyc 
in force_import(modname)

/home/jason/sage/local/bin/ipy_profile_sage.py in module()
   5 preparser(True)
   6
 7 import sage.all_cmdline
   8 sage.all_cmdline._init_cmdline(globals())
   9

/home/jason/download/sage-3.4.1/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sage/all_cmdline.py
 
in module()

/home/jason/sage/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sage/all.py in module()
  92 from sage.interfaces.all import *
  93
--- 94 from sage.symbolic.all   import *
  95
  96 from sage.functions.all  import *

/home/jason/sage/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sage/symbolic/all.py 
in module()
   1
 2 from ring import SR, is_SymbolicExpressionRing, is_SymbolicVariable
   3 from constants import (pi, e, NaN, golden_ratio, log2, 
euler_gamma, catalan,
   4khinchin, twinprime, merten, brun, i, I)
   5 from expression import Expression, is_Expression
   6 from function import SFunction, PrimitiveFunction

ImportError: libpynac-0.1.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such 
file or directory
Error importing ipy_profile_sage - perhaps you should run %upgrade?
WARNING: Loading of ipy_profile_sage failed.


I have the following pynac spkgs installed:
~/sage/spkg/installed$ ls | grep pynac
pynac-0.1.3
pynac-0.1.6-mh


I can't seem to find the file it complains about, but I find similar 
libraries:

~/sage$ find . -name libpynac-0.1.so.2
~/sage$ find . -name libpynac\*
./local/lib/libpynac.la
./local/lib/libpynac-0.1.so.5
./local/lib/libpynac-0.1.so.5.0.0
./local/lib/libpynac.so


The full log of everything I did and all the output from the 
installation is here:

http://sage.pastebin.com/m29fd2be0

I'm looking forward to trying this!

Thanks,

Jason


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[sage-devel] Re: Torsion Subgroups of Elliptic Curves over Number Fields


I noticed something in the code i wrote which can be improved.  This
is something which was not in Chris Wuthrich's original
implementation, so it is my fault.

Here's what we do:  (1) find an upper bound on the torsion order, i.e.
a positive integer N such that the torsion order is certainly a
divisor of N.  This uses the function _torsion_bound() in
ell_number_field.py.(2) For each prime dividing N, find a basis
for  the p-primary torsion.  This is done in
_p_primary_torsion_basis() in ell_generic.py.  (3) Put together the
primary parts.

Here's the inefficiency.  In step (2) I ignore the bound we have on
the exponent of each prime.  This wastes time in computing the
p-primary torsion basis.  So I will change the function
_p_primary_torsion_basis() to take an optional parameter which is a
bound on the  exponent of the order (not the exponent of the p-primary
subgroup).

e.g. in Jim's example, the bound is 49 and teh actual torion is C7xC7.
  But when we compute the 7-primary torsion, after finding that the
7-torsion is complete and of order 49, we do not stop, but test 8
points in the 7-torsion subgroup to see if they can be divided further
by 7.  that last part is obiously a waste of time since we have
already reached the bound.

I have a bad feeling that I first thought of this within an hour of
the relevant patches at trac #3377 being merged, but never got around
to doing anything about it.  I will do so now.

John

2009/5/7 Jim Stankewicz stankew...@gmail.com:
 Dear Dr. Cremona,

 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:22 AM, John Cremona john.crem...@gmail.com wrote:
 [Note to other sage-devel readers:  Jim initially emailed me about
 this, being a case where (apparently) Sage was very much faster than
 Magma, though I could not reproduce the large difference.  I suggested
 to him that if he had comments about Sage then he should email
 sage-devel rather than the individual whose name appears in the source
 code for the function in question.]

 2009/5/7 Jim Stankewicz stankew...@gmail.com:
 Dear Dr. Cremona,

 After the last message I wanted to test if it was MAGMA 2.14-15(the
 current version on UGA's server) or the computer. I installed sage via
 vmware on my severely underpowered winxp eee laptop and even then it
 took 78 seconds.

 Do you mean that the Sage function took 78 seconds?

 Yes, the sage function torsion_subgroup() took 78 seconds on an intel
 atom powered eee laptop. In a reasonably powered computer it takes
 10-12 seconds.

 This is perhaps more of a magma bugshooting
 conversation at this point

 I think it is, in which case you should be addressing your comments to
 magma-bugs (though being slow is not a bug, and if there used to be a
 bug but it has been fixed in the latest release then they will not be
 interested.).


 I know, I just included the information I had for completeness.

 Best,
 Jim


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[sage-devel] Re: loads(dumps(G)) for G a graphics object

2009-05-07 Thread Carl Witty


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 7:01 AM, kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com wrote:
 I am hoping to help the push to 75% by adding some doctests to some of
 the plotting primitives.  But for some reason, the following always
 occurs:

 sage: G = some graphics object
 sage: G == loads(dumps(G))
 False

 Nonetheless, no matter how hard I try, I cannot actually find a
 difference between G and loads(dumps(G)) when I view both of them,
 look at xmin(), options(), etc.  Why aren't they ==?

Because graphics objects don't implement equality (there are no __eq__
or __cmp__ methods defined), so the default implementation is used,
which is is (object identity, pointer equality).

Carl

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL

2009-05-07 Thread Robert Dodier


On May 5, 8:05 pm, Brian Granger ellisonbg@gmail.com wrote:

  A sage worksheet is no more a derived work of Sage than a jpeg would
  be a derived work of Photoshop/GIMP or a .doc file would be a derived
  work of MS Office or OpenOffice.

 I disagree.  A jpeg or .doc file is not source code in any sense of
 the word, thus the GPL is completely irrelevant (I think we agree on
 that).

That simply isn't so. To quote the GPL:
This License applies to any program or other work ...
The Program, below, refers to any such program or work, ...

FWIW

Robert Dodier
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[sage-devel] Re: ideas involving sage+maple?

2009-05-07 Thread Bill Page

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:32 AM, David Joyner wrote:

I just want to pass along some ideas I got from Sage developers at the
recent NSF-CDI conference in Rhode Island. I don't know how feasible
they are.

I guess you meant Maple developers?

(1) One Maple developer suggested that the pexpect interface
Sage-Maple could be improved using the Openmaple API
(http://www.maplesoft.com/applications/view.aspx?SID=4383).
Instead of passing strings back-and-forth, you simply pass pointers,
which he said would be faster.

Yes. I've played with this a little. There is some good example C code
in the Maple distribution. The infamous new (new with release 9, I
think is was, the current release is 13) java-based user interface
uses Java bindings to this same API. Here a few more recent
references:

http://www.maplesoft.com/support/help/view.aspx?path=OpenMaple/C/API
http://www.mapleprimes.com/forum/seeking-c-library-for-symbolic-manipulation
http://cpan.uwinnipeg.ca/htdocs/PerlMaple/PerlMaple.html

http://code.google.com/p/pymaple (Good idea, but doesn't look like
anything is happen here yet.)

Perhaps some useful code here:

http://dev.se.wtb.tue.nl/projects/chi-tooling/browser/trunk/chinetics/chinetics/solvers/pymaple?rev=1467

So far as I know there is no licensing problem with linking to the
OpenMaple API dynamic library but of course to use it one would
actually have to install a licensed version of Maple.

(2) Another person suggested that if one was to ask for Maple support
in any sort of collaborative project (Hoon Hong suggested that research
on interfaces is important and needs further development, for example),
the best person to ask would be the guy in charge of R+D, whose name
I have forgotten. Is there any objection to trying to pursue this angle? (I
have no idea how fruitful it will be, but IMHO it can't hurt to ask.)

I agree. Why not? I used to use Maple a lot. Now I just as often use
Maple from within the Sage notebook.

I would be interested in helping in a project like this.

Regards,
Bill Page.

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[sage-devel] Re: loads(dumps(G)) for G a graphics object


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Carl Witty carl.wi...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 7:01 AM, kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com wrote:
 I am hoping to help the push to 75% by adding some doctests to some of
 the plotting primitives.  But for some reason, the following always
 occurs:

 sage: G = some graphics object
 sage: G == loads(dumps(G))
 False

 Nonetheless, no matter how hard I try, I cannot actually find a
 difference between G and loads(dumps(G)) when I view both of them,
 look at xmin(), options(), etc.  Why aren't they ==?

 Because graphics objects don't implement equality (there are no __eq__
 or __cmp__ methods defined), so the default implementation is used,
 which is is (object identity, pointer equality).

 Carl

Ergo, you should implement __cmp__.

William

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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Jason Grout jason-s...@creativetrax.com wrote:

 Jaap Spies wrote:
 Mike Hansen wrote:

 Hi Mike
 [...]
 If you want to try the code out, there is an spkg and two patches in
 http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mhansen/symbolics/.  These should
 install and apply cleanly to Sage 3.4.2.


 I tried applying to sage-3.4.2, got:
 [j...@paix sage-3.4.2]$ ./sage
 --
 | Sage Version 3.4.2, Release Date: 2009-05-04                       |
 | Type notebook() for the GUI, and license() for information.        |
 --
 ---
 ImportError                               Traceback (most recent call last)

 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/IPython/ipmaker.pyc
  in force_import(modname)
       64         reload(sys.modules[modname])
       65     else:
 --- 66         __import__(modname)
       67
       68

 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/bin/ipy_profile_sage.py in module()
        5     preparser(True)
        6
  7     import sage.all_cmdline
        8     sage.all_cmdline._init_cmdline(globals())
        9

 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sage/all_cmdline.py
  in module()
       12 try:
       13
 --- 14     from sage.all import *
       15     from sage.calculus.predefined import x
       16     preparser(on=True)

 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sage/all.py
  in module()
       90 from sage.functions.all  import *
       91
 --- 92 import sage.symbolic.pynac   # This must come before Calculus -- it 
 initializes the Pynac library.
       93 from sage.calculus.all   import *
       94 from sage.server.all     import *

 ImportError: libpynac-0.1.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file 
 or directory
 Error importing ipy_profile_sage - perhaps you should run %upgrade?
 WARNING: Loading of ipy_profile_sage failed.

 What's wrong?


Delete constants.so:

$ rm devel/sage/build/lib.macosx-10.3-i386-2.5/sage/symbolic/constants*
$ rm devel/sage/build/temp.macosx-10.3-i386-2.5/sage/symbolic/constants*
$ rm devel/sage/build/sage/symbolic/constants.so

Then

teragon:sage-3.4.2 wstein$ sage
--
| Sage Version 3.4.2, Release Date: 2009-05-05   |
| Type notebook() for the GUI, and license() for information.|
--
sage: f = expand((sin(x)+cos(x^2))^3); f   # no pause while
maxima starts
sin(x)^3 + 3*sin(x)^2*cos(x^2) + 3*sin(x)*cos(x^2)^2 + cos(x^2)^3
sage: type(f)
type 'sage.symbolic.expression.Expression'
sage:
Exiting SAGE (CPU time 0m0.10s, Wall time 0m5.37s).# no
maxima shutting down


-- William

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[sage-devel] Re: loads(dumps(G)) for G a graphics object

2009-05-07 Thread kcrisman


  Because graphics objects don't implement equality (there are no __eq__
  or __cmp__ methods defined), so the default implementation is used,
  which is is (object identity, pointer equality).

  Carl

 Ergo, you should implement __cmp__.

Umm... how would I do that?  Or is you cwitty?  Maybe if one of you
pointed me to a good implementation of __cmp__ for a similar type of
object, that would be helpful.

I don't know that I could do that in time for 4.0, though, so I'll
keep working on the other stuff with current loads(dumps()) behavior,
since it is already in two of the plot files.

Thanks for any other input,
- kcrisman
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[sage-devel] Re: strange rounding with SymbolicArithmetic

2009-05-07 Thread Yann


On May 7, 3:38 am, Nick Alexander ncalexan...@gmail.com wrote:
  1.234567?

 +1

  1.234567?1 is more

 -1

 Nick

+1 on this example...
I don't want to look stubborn but let's try another vote (it´s my last
comment on this thread...)

sage:RIF( 3 , 3.2 )
4.?

or

sage:RIF( 3 , 3.2 )
4.±1
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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:51 AM, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Jason Grout jason-s...@creativetrax.com 
 wrote:

 Jaap Spies wrote:
 Mike Hansen wrote:

 Hi Mike
 [...]
 If you want to try the code out, there is an spkg and two patches in
 http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mhansen/symbolics/.  These should
 install and apply cleanly to Sage 3.4.2.


 I tried applying to sage-3.4.2, got:
 [j...@paix sage-3.4.2]$ ./sage
 --
 | Sage Version 3.4.2, Release Date: 2009-05-04                       |
 | Type notebook() for the GUI, and license() for information.        |
 --
 ---
 ImportError                               Traceback (most recent call last)

 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/IPython/ipmaker.pyc
  in force_import(modname)
       64         reload(sys.modules[modname])
       65     else:
 --- 66         __import__(modname)
       67
       68

 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/bin/ipy_profile_sage.py in module()
        5     preparser(True)
        6
  7     import sage.all_cmdline
        8     sage.all_cmdline._init_cmdline(globals())
        9

 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sage/all_cmdline.py
  in module()
       12 try:
       13
 --- 14     from sage.all import *
       15     from sage.calculus.predefined import x
       16     preparser(on=True)

 /home/jaap/downloads/sage-3.4.2/local/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sage/all.py
  in module()
       90 from sage.functions.all  import *
       91
 --- 92 import sage.symbolic.pynac   # This must come before Calculus -- it 
 initializes the Pynac library.
       93 from sage.calculus.all   import *
       94 from sage.server.all     import *

 ImportError: libpynac-0.1.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such 
 file or directory
 Error importing ipy_profile_sage - perhaps you should run %upgrade?
 WARNING: Loading of ipy_profile_sage failed.

 What's wrong?


 Delete constants.so:

 $ rm devel/sage/build/lib.macosx-10.3-i386-2.5/sage/symbolic/constants*
 $ rm devel/sage/build/temp.macosx-10.3-i386-2.5/sage/symbolic/constants*
 $ rm devel/sage/build/sage/symbolic/constants.so

I posted more complete step-by-step directions here:

http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/5930

I also installed a command system wide on sage.math so that typing
sage-symbolics will run a clean 3.4.2 Sage install that has the new
symbolics code built and working.  So for those with accounts, just
login to sage.math.washington.edu and type sage-symbolics.  I'm also
currently updating http://alpha.sagenb.org, so it uses 3.4.2 + new
symbolics:

wst...@sage:~$ sage-symbolics
--
| Sage Version 3.4.2, Release Date: 2009-05-04   |
| Type notebook() for the GUI, and license() for information.|
--
sage: type(x)
type 'sage.symbolic.expression.Expression'


 -- William


-- 
William Stein
Associate Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0

2009-05-07 Thread Mike Hansen


Hi Burcin,

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 8:25 AM, Burcin Erocal bur...@erocal.org wrote:
 I guess the first patch is a collection of my patches sitting on trac,
 so I didn't read it. Is this right?

Yep.

 Some minor comments after reading the 2nd patch:

  * does new_Expression_from_GEx() really need the new parent parameter?

Yes, since callable symbolic expressions which you get from doing
things like f(x) = x^2 are just Expressions with different parents.
This avoids having two parallel classes that we have to keep in sync.
If you can think of a different solution, I'd be all for it.

  * how does the new _convert() function relate to the _eval_self() I
   defined to handle numerical approximations?

Actually, _convert() can be deleted, it's left over from before we had
_eval_self().

  * in the _factor_list() method, the line if op is not None: seems
   superfluous

Yep -- it was from the original _factor_list.  I've taken care of this
in my tree which is at
/scratch/mhansen/sage-3.4.2.alpha0-sage.math-only-x86_64-Linux/devel/sage-symbolics

  * in the initialization of SFunction, I had removed the find_function()
   call, since you don't want to overwrite a previously user created
   function which might be present in previously created expressions.
   It seems that your patch adds it back.

We need this in order to have our sin function match up with the one
in GiNaC.  There's a check that the end so that it only takes the
serial from find_function if it isn't a builtin function in GiNaC.

  * I don't think SFunction should have a .serial() method. It is useful
   for debugging but it shouldn't be exposed to users.

Fair enough -- it should be removed.

  * can we not use from sage.all import ... in function.pyx?

Not at the top level.  Things such as sin, cos, etc. all use function.pyx.

  * why is SR.pi() necessary?

Compatibility with the old interface.

  * the docstring for SR.var() is confusing, since you use it to create
   multiple symbolic variables, and return expressions if the argument
   is already an expression

We can fix this.

  * I don't see immediately why the printing functions are in the
   parent, and not the elements. I.e., why is printing deferred to
   SR._repr_element() and SR._latex_element()?

This is for callable symbolic expressions.

 As I pointed out earlier on IRC, I don't think it's necessary to patch
 pynac at all for the constant evaluation. You can just pass in any
 python object which implements a .numerical_approx() method (the python
 object for the constant itself?) to the constant constructor. This
 would also remove the need for a lookup table for numerical
 approximation of constants.


 This is the first time I saw the default_variable() function in the previous 
 symbolics code. I suggest that this is deprecated, and the functions that 
 need this require explicitly stating variables. Maybe this discussion should 
 take place in a different thread though, since it's independent of your patch.

I believe sin(x).derivative() breaks without it.  Another thread would be good.

--Mike

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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0

2009-05-07 Thread Jaap Spies


William Stein wrote:
[...]
 
 Delete constants.so:
 
 $ rm devel/sage/build/lib.macosx-10.3-i386-2.5/sage/symbolic/constants*
 $ rm devel/sage/build/temp.macosx-10.3-i386-2.5/sage/symbolic/constants*
 $ rm devel/sage/build/sage/symbolic/constants.so
 
 Then
 
 teragon:sage-3.4.2 wstein$ sage
 --
 | Sage Version 3.4.2, Release Date: 2009-05-05   |
 | Type notebook() for the GUI, and license() for information.|
 --
 sage: f = expand((sin(x)+cos(x^2))^3); f   # no pause while
 maxima starts
 sin(x)^3 + 3*sin(x)^2*cos(x^2) + 3*sin(x)*cos(x^2)^2 + cos(x^2)^3
 sage: type(f)
 type 'sage.symbolic.expression.Expression'
 sage:
 Exiting SAGE (CPU time 0m0.10s, Wall time 0m5.37s).# no
 maxima shutting down
 

Works! Great.

Jaap


 
 -- William
 
  
 


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[sage-devel] Re: strange rounding with SymbolicArithmetic


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Yann yannlaiglecha...@gmail.com wrote:

 On May 7, 3:38 am, Nick Alexander ncalexan...@gmail.com wrote:
  1.234567?

 +1

  1.234567?1 is more

 -1

 Nick

 +1 on this example...
 I don't want to look stubborn but let's try another vote (it´s my last
 comment on this thread...)

 sage:RIF( 3 , 3.2 )
 4.?

 or

 sage:RIF( 3 , 3.2 )
 4.±1

Given those two choices, I vote for 4.?.

William

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[sage-devel] Re: strange rounding with SymbolicArithmetic

2009-05-07 Thread Nick Alexander


 sage:RIF( 3 , 3.2 )
 4.±1

-2 to unicode or whatever lets you type $\pm$.

As for the fact that 4.? is confusing to people who know nothing about  
sage, that does not concern me in the slightest.  I find lots of  
things that I know nothing about confusing!

Nick
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[sage-devel] Re: strange rounding with SymbolicArithmetic


2009/5/7 Nick Alexander ncalexan...@gmail.com:

 sage:RIF( 3 , 3.2 )
 4.±1

 -2 to unicode or whatever lets you type $\pm$.

 As for the fact that 4.? is confusing to people who know nothing about
 sage, that does not concern me in the slightest.  I find lots of
 things that I know nothing about confusing!

Me too, but I have absolutely no idea why RIF(3,3.2) is anywhere near
4, so find this completely incomprehensible.  Isn't it the interval
from 3.0 to 3.2?

I have never used the RIF, mainly because I cannot understand its output.

John


 Nick
 


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[sage-devel] Re: loads(dumps(G)) for G a graphics object


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:06 AM, kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com wrote:

  Because graphics objects don't implement equality (there are no __eq__
  or __cmp__ methods defined), so the default implementation is used,
  which is is (object identity, pointer equality).

  Carl

 Ergo, you should implement __cmp__.

 Umm... how would I do that?  Or is you cwitty?  Maybe if one of you
 pointed me to a good implementation of __cmp__ for a similar type of
 object, that would be helpful.

You = somebody :-)

 I don't know that I could do that in time for 4.0, though, so I'll
 keep working on the other stuff with current loads(dumps()) behavior,
 since it is already in two of the plot files.

Yep, if you don't know how to implement __cmp__, then just don't
implement the loads(dumps(...))) doctests at all.

William

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL

2009-05-07 Thread Tom Boothby

I just found this thread, sorry for weighing in late.

Note: this is a light-hearted response to a topic which I consider
very grave.  It's been claimed that the script

from sage import Integer
print Integer(2)+Integer(2)

must be GPL'd.   I claim that the above is a sage-ultralight script.
I've attached an independent implementation of sage-ultralight that
has been released under the SACL (Smart Guy Common License).
Unfortunately, the SACL is also a virulent license, so sage-ultralight
is GPL-incompatible. Therefore, nobody can redistribute the above code
without fear of retribution from me, or the FSF. (evil laughter?)

On a more serious note, I do not believe that a Sage script is
automatically GPL'd -- and I believe that the FSF agrees.  From the
FAQ

When the interpreter just interprets a language, the answer is no.
 The interpreted program, to the interpreter, is just data; a free
 software license like the GPL, based on copyright law, cannot limit
 what data you use the interpreter on. You can run it on any data
 (interpreted program), any way you like, and there are no
 requirements about licensing that data to anyone.

I believe that Sage constitutes an interpreter in the case of the
above script.  Furthermore, I claim that the CLI (Ipython), the
notebook, and the interpreter are no different in this regard.  Users
of Sage are free to distribute their input to Sage, and the output
that they receive from Sage in any manner that they please, as long as
their input, or the output do not contain derived work*.

However, when the interpreter is extended to provide “bindings”
 to other facilities (often, but not necessarily, libraries), the
 interpreted program is effectively linked to the facilities it uses
 through these bindings. So if these facilities are released under
 the GPL, the interpreted program that uses them must be
 released in a GPL-compatible way

The key portion of this is that *the interpreted program* must be
released in a GPL-compatible way.  A Sage script is nothing but input
-- it does not link to Sage, it does not depend on Sage to run, as I
demonstrated above.  If a person downloads a Sage script, for the most
part, they'll have to install a copy of Sage -- that script can have
whatever license its author wants.  As demonstrated above, one can
write Python code which emulates Sage to a degree that any particular
script could be run in Python without an install of Sage. (note, one
may freely use the preprocessor to convert Sage code into Python code,
and this should not restrict the user's freedom)

Compare this to Cython code -- it is possible to release a Cython
script as source under the SACL, which dynamically links to GPL'd Sage
code.  That source is freely distributable, but binary releases may
not be made under the terms of either license.

YMMV, IANAL, IANAD, etc.

* If you make a derived class, for example, which contains code from
the original class, that's a no-no -- or similarly, if your session
involves introspection.

Franco: thanks for sharing Piet -- that's awesome.

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# Copyright (c) 2009, Tom Boothby
# This file is released under Smart Guy Contrary License (SACL):
#
# Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
# modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:
# * Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
#   notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
# * Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
#   notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
#   documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
# * Neither the name of the organization nor the
#   names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products
#   derived from this software without specific prior written permission.
# * Derivative works must be released under the SACL. 
#
# THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY copyright holder ''AS IS'' AND ANY
# EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED
# WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE
# DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL copyright holder BE LIABLE FOR ANY
# DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES
# (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES;
# LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND
# ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT
# (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR

[sage-devel] Re: strange rounding with SymbolicArithmetic


John Cremona wrote:
 2009/5/7 Nick Alexander ncalexan...@gmail.com:
 sage:RIF( 3 , 3.2 )
 4.±1
 -2 to unicode or whatever lets you type $\pm$.

 As for the fact that 4.? is confusing to people who know nothing about
 sage, that does not concern me in the slightest.  I find lots of
 things that I know nothing about confusing!
 
 Me too, but I have absolutely no idea why RIF(3,3.2) is anywhere near
 4, so find this completely incomprehensible.  Isn't it the interval
 from 3.0 to 3.2?
 
 I have never used the RIF, mainly because I cannot understand its output.


It's a compact notation for the interval:

[4.0-1 .. 4.0+1] = [3.0 .. 5.0]

The question mark just means the interval goes from the number with last 
digit minus one to the number with last digit plus one.

For example:

3.5? is the interval [3.4 .. 3.6]

3.293948? is the interval [3.293947 .. 3.293949]

More documentation can be found by taking any element x of RIF and doing 
x.str?

You can change the default back to printing an explicit interval by doing:

sage: sage.rings.real_mpfi.printing_style='brackets'
sage: RIF(3,3.2)
[3. .. 3.2002]
sage: sage.rings.real_mpfi.printing_style='question'
sage: RIF(3,3.2)
4.?


Carl, could you comment on the difference between these two cases?

sage: RIF(3,3.199)
3.1?
sage: RIF(3,3.1999)
4.?

Thanks,

Jason


-- 
Jason Grout


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[sage-devel] Re: strange rounding with SymbolicArithmetic


Thanks for taking the time to explain, Jason.

2009/5/7 Jason Grout jason-s...@creativetrax.com:

 John Cremona wrote:
 2009/5/7 Nick Alexander ncalexan...@gmail.com:
 sage:RIF( 3 , 3.2 )
 4.±1
 -2 to unicode or whatever lets you type $\pm$.

 As for the fact that 4.? is confusing to people who know nothing about
 sage, that does not concern me in the slightest.  I find lots of
 things that I know nothing about confusing!

 Me too, but I have absolutely no idea why RIF(3,3.2) is anywhere near
 4, so find this completely incomprehensible.  Isn't it the interval
 from 3.0 to 3.2?

 I have never used the RIF, mainly because I cannot understand its output.


 It's a compact notation for the interval:

 [4.0-1 .. 4.0+1] = [3.0 .. 5.0]

 The question mark just means the interval goes from the number with last
 digit minus one to the number with last digit plus one.

 For example:

 3.5? is the interval [3.4 .. 3.6]

 3.293948? is the interval [3.293947 .. 3.293949]

 More documentation can be found by taking any element x of RIF and doing
 x.str?

 You can change the default back to printing an explicit interval by doing:

 sage: sage.rings.real_mpfi.printing_style='brackets'
 sage: RIF(3,3.2)
 [3. .. 3.2002]
 sage: sage.rings.real_mpfi.printing_style='question'
 sage: RIF(3,3.2)
 4.?


Why is this not 3.1?  From what you said earlier that means the
interval between 3.1-0.1=3 and 3.1+0.1=3.2, doesn't it?

John



 Carl, could you comment on the difference between these two cases?

 sage: RIF(3,3.199)
 3.1?
 sage: RIF(3,3.1999)
 4.?

 Thanks,

 Jason


 --
 Jason Grout


 


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[sage-devel] return type for coefficient,

2009-05-07 Thread Soroosh Yazdani

Hi,

this might be a design decision, so I haven't filed a bug report for it yet.
However, it seems that coefficient is returning the wrong type when it's
called on multinomials. Here is an example code:

sage: K.x,y,z=QQ[]
sage: f = x^3+y^3+z^3
sage: f.coefficient([3,0,0]).parent()
Multivariate Polynomial Ring in x, y, z over Rational Field

It makes more sense for the above return value to be the Rational Field.
Similarly, f.coefficient([3,None,None]).parent(), should probably return
Multivariate Polynomial Ring in x, z over Rational Field.

Should I file a bug for this?
Soroosh

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[sage-devel] Re: strange rounding with SymbolicArithmetic

2009-05-07 Thread Yann




On May 7, 9:24 pm, John Cremona john.crem...@gmail.com wrote:
 Thanks for taking the time to explain, Jason.

 2009/5/7 Jason Grout jason-s...@creativetrax.com:





  John Cremona wrote:
  2009/5/7 Nick Alexander ncalexan...@gmail.com:
  sage:RIF( 3 , 3.2 )
  4.±1
  -2 to unicode or whatever lets you type $\pm$.

  As for the fact that 4.? is confusing to people who know nothing about
  sage, that does not concern me in the slightest.  I find lots of
  things that I know nothing about confusing!

  Me too, but I have absolutely no idea why RIF(3,3.2) is anywhere near
  4, so find this completely incomprehensible.  Isn't it the interval
  from 3.0 to 3.2?

  I have never used the RIF, mainly because I cannot understand its output.

  It's a compact notation for the interval:

  [4.0-1 .. 4.0+1] = [3.0 .. 5.0]

  The question mark just means the interval goes from the number with last
  digit minus one to the number with last digit plus one.

  For example:

  3.5? is the interval [3.4 .. 3.6]

  3.293948? is the interval [3.293947 .. 3.293949]

  More documentation can be found by taking any element x of RIF and doing
  x.str?

  You can change the default back to printing an explicit interval by doing:

  sage: sage.rings.real_mpfi.printing_style='brackets'
  sage: RIF(3,3.2)
  [3. .. 3.2002]
  sage: sage.rings.real_mpfi.printing_style='question'
  sage: RIF(3,3.2)
  4.?

 Why is this not 3.1?  From what you said earlier that means the
 interval between 3.1-0.1=3 and 3.1+0.1=3.2, doesn't it?

 John


I think it's because 3.2 is not exact in base 2, and thus the value we
have is just slightly greater than 3.2,
(you can see it a few lines above: 3.2002)

Yann


  Carl, could you comment on the difference between these two cases?

  sage: RIF(3,3.199)
  3.1?
  sage: RIF(3,3.1999)
  4.?

  Thanks,

  Jason

  --
  Jason Grout
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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL


 Note: this is a light-hearted response to a topic which I consider
 very grave.  It's been claimed that the script

 from sage import Integer
 print Integer(2)+Integer(2)

 must be GPL'd.   I claim that the above is a sage-ultralight script.
 I've attached an independent implementation of sage-ultralight that
 has been released under the SACL (Smart Guy Common License).
 Unfortunately, the SACL is also a virulent license, so sage-ultralight
 is GPL-incompatible. Therefore, nobody can redistribute the above code
 without fear of retribution from me, or the FSF. (evil laughter?)

He, he.  For the above script to run in sage-ultralight,
sage-ultralight must have the same name as sage.  Then you get into
copyright/trademark related issues (the name sage is already taken).
 Just the same I could create a GUI toolkit named Qt that was also
released under the SACL license, but you can guess what would happen.

Maybe someday a court will clarify what exactly the GPL means...I just
hope they don't find that the air we breath is a derived work of some
GPL licensed entity.  Then, if we breath such air, we would all have
to be GPLd :-)

Cheers,

Brian

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Tom Boothby tomas.boot...@gmail.com wrote:
 I just found this thread, sorry for weighing in late.

 Note: this is a light-hearted response to a topic which I consider
 very grave.  It's been claimed that the script

 from sage import Integer
 print Integer(2)+Integer(2)

 must be GPL'd.   I claim that the above is a sage-ultralight script.
 I've attached an independent implementation of sage-ultralight that
 has been released under the SACL (Smart Guy Common License).
 Unfortunately, the SACL is also a virulent license, so sage-ultralight
 is GPL-incompatible. Therefore, nobody can redistribute the above code
 without fear of retribution from me, or the FSF. (evil laughter?)

 On a more serious note, I do not believe that a Sage script is
 automatically GPL'd -- and I believe that the FSF agrees.  From the
 FAQ

    When the interpreter just interprets a language, the answer is no.
     The interpreted program, to the interpreter, is just data; a free
     software license like the GPL, based on copyright law, cannot limit
     what data you use the interpreter on. You can run it on any data
     (interpreted program), any way you like, and there are no
     requirements about licensing that data to anyone.

 I believe that Sage constitutes an interpreter in the case of the
 above script.  Furthermore, I claim that the CLI (Ipython), the
 notebook, and the interpreter are no different in this regard.  Users
 of Sage are free to distribute their input to Sage, and the output
 that they receive from Sage in any manner that they please, as long as
 their input, or the output do not contain derived work*.

    However, when the interpreter is extended to provide “bindings”
     to other facilities (often, but not necessarily, libraries), the
     interpreted program is effectively linked to the facilities it uses
     through these bindings. So if these facilities are released under
     the GPL, the interpreted program that uses them must be
     released in a GPL-compatible way

 The key portion of this is that *the interpreted program* must be
 released in a GPL-compatible way.  A Sage script is nothing but input
 -- it does not link to Sage, it does not depend on Sage to run, as I
 demonstrated above.

That FAQ entry which you partially quoted concludes with A
consequence is that if you choose to use GPL'd Perl modules or Java
classes in your program, you must release the program in a
GPL-compatible way, regardless of the license used in the Perl or Java
interpreter that the combined Perl or Java program will run on.

Changing Perl and Java to Python and changing GPL'd Python
modules to the Sage library, this reads:

A consequence is that if you choose to use the
 Sage library in your Python program, you must
 release the program in a GPL-compatible way...

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL


 I disagree.  A jpeg or .doc file is not source code in any sense of
 the word, thus the GPL is completely irrelevant (I think we agree on
 that).

 That simply isn't so. To quote the GPL:
 This License applies to any program or other work ...
 The Program, below, refers to any such program or work, ...

Are you arguing that jpeg's produced by GIMP are all GPL'd?

I agree that it is definitely possible to release non-programs, such
as JPEGs, under the GPL.  But, in the case of GIMP producing a JPEG,
most of us don't consider the JPEG a derived work of GIMP.  Why not?

* The JPEG stands on its own and can be used independently of GIMP.
* The part of GIMP that is licensed under the GPL is its source code.
I am not sure, but I think it is C++.  Derived works of GIMP must
therefore also be C++ programs or a program in another language that
is able of directly linking to and calling C++.

Sure someone brought up the issue of the odd language for which
bitmaps are source code.  In that case, a bitmap can absolutely be a
derived work.  But, it doesn't follow that all bitmaps are derived
work of all programming languages.

Cheers,

Brian

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL

2009-05-07 Thread Alfredo Portes


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 4:23 PM, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote:

 That FAQ entry which you partially quoted concludes with A
 consequence is that if you choose to use GPL'd Perl modules or Java
 classes in your program, you must release the program in a
 GPL-compatible way, regardless of the license used in the Perl or Java
 interpreter that the combined Perl or Java program will run on.

Unless the module used has a classpath exception right? Like Java does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL_linking_exception

Couldn't Sage include something like this? and can somebody with a Law degree
and not a Math degree comment here :). It has been a fun thread.

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Alfredo Portes doyenatc...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 4:23 PM, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote:

 That FAQ entry which you partially quoted concludes with A
 consequence is that if you choose to use GPL'd Perl modules or Java
 classes in your program, you must release the program in a
 GPL-compatible way, regardless of the license used in the Perl or Java
 interpreter that the combined Perl or Java program will run on.

 Unless the module used has a classpath exception right? Like Java does.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL_linking_exception

 Couldn't Sage include something like this?

No, because Sage derives from many other GPL'd programs, and those
would *all* have to make the classpath exception as well.

William

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[sage-devel] Re: return type for coefficient,


It is a documented feature -- look at the docstring which says

def coefficient(self, degrees):

Return the coefficient of the variables with the degrees
specified in the python dictionary \code{degrees}.  Mathematically,
this is the coefficient in the base ring adjoined by the variables
of this ring not listed in \code{degrees}.  However, the result
has the same parent as this polynomial.

This function contrasts with the function \code{monomial_coefficient}
which returns the coefficient in the base ring of a monomial.

I do agree that it is a strange design, and would prefer
f.coefficient() to return an element of the base ring.

John

2009/5/7 Soroosh Yazdani syazd...@gmail.com:
 Hi,

 this might be a design decision, so I haven't filed a bug report for it yet.
 However, it seems that coefficient is returning the wrong type when it's
 called on multinomials. Here is an example code:

 sage: K.x,y,z=QQ[]
 sage: f = x^3+y^3+z^3
 sage: f.coefficient([3,0,0]).parent()
 Multivariate Polynomial Ring in x, y, z over Rational Field

 It makes more sense for the above return value to be the Rational Field.
 Similarly, f.coefficient([3,None,None]).parent(), should probably return
 Multivariate Polynomial Ring in x, z over Rational Field.

 Should I file a bug for this?
 Soroosh


 


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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL


2009/5/7 Brian Granger ellisonbg@gmail.com:

 I disagree.  A jpeg or .doc file is not source code in any sense of
 the word, thus the GPL is completely irrelevant (I think we agree on
 that).

 That simply isn't so. To quote the GPL:
 This License applies to any program or other work ...
 The Program, below, refers to any such program or work, ...

 Are you arguing that jpeg's produced by GIMP are all GPL'd?

 I agree that it is definitely possible to release non-programs, such
 as JPEGs, under the GPL.  But, in the case of GIMP producing a JPEG,
 most of us don't consider the JPEG a derived work of GIMP.  Why not?

 * The JPEG stands on its own and can be used independently of GIMP.
 * The part of GIMP that is licensed under the GPL is its source code.
 I am not sure, but I think it is C++.  Derived works of GIMP must
 therefore also be C++ programs or a program in another language that
 is able of directly linking to and calling C++.

 Sure someone brought up the issue of the odd language for which
 bitmaps are source code.  In that case, a bitmap can absolutely be a
 derived work.  But, it doesn't follow that all bitmaps are derived
 work of all programming languages.

This reminds me of the case of the (large) prime number which in
binary was a fully functioning linux progam which played DVDs,
complete with CSS decoding.  As it was a large enough prime it was
posted on the large primes web page.

Perhaps that prime now has to be GPL'd...

John


 Cheers,

 Brian

 


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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL

2009-05-07 Thread Tom Boothby


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Brian Granger ellisonbg@gmail.com wrote:

 He, he.  For the above script to run in sage-ultralight,
 sage-ultralight must have the same name as sage.  Then you get into
 copyright/trademark related issues (the name sage is already taken).
  Just the same I could create a GUI toolkit named Qt that was also
 released under the SACL license, but you can guess what would happen.

Incorrect.  Python doesn't care what you call your program, it only
cares about the filename.  If somebody wants to go to court about a
filename... that'll certainly be interesting.

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL


 sage-ultralight must have the same name as sage.  Then you get into
 copyright/trademark related issues (the name sage is already taken).
  Just the same I could create a GUI toolkit named Qt that was also
 released under the SACL license, but you can guess what would happen.

 Incorrect.  Python doesn't care what you call your program, it only
 cares about the filename.

Huh?  Your example had two files or modules:

foo.py


from sage import Integer
print Integer(2)+Integer(2)

sage.py
==

# Your ultralight-sage implementation with...
# Whatever your implementation of Integer was

Python doesn't care about the name foo.py.  But Python does care
that about the name sage, otherwise the import of sage in foo.py
won't work.  To get from sage import Integer to work, you *have to*
name sage.py,well, sage.py.  But as I recall there is already a
sage python project somewhere ;-).  I think the authors of the real
sage project might have a problem with you naming your ultralight sage
module sage.py.  Just like Fernando and myself would have a problem
if another IPython named project came along.

 If somebody wants to go to court about a
 filename... that'll certainly be interesting.

This is called trademark infringement, and it happens all the time.
Remember Apple v. Apple?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v._Apple_Computer

Cheers,

Brian


 


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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0

2009-05-07 Thread Robert Bradshaw


On May 7, 2009, at 4:10 AM, Mike Hansen wrote:

 Hello all,

 I've been doing a lot of work recent trying to get the new symbolics
 ready for Sage 4.0.  With 4.0 due out in 8 days, we're trying to do
 the final push.

 There are currently a lot of printing errors since Pynac/GiNaC prints
 expressions differently than Maxima does.  Some things still need
 doctests, and there are a few small features left to implement.  If
 you have some free time in the next few days and want to help out,
 it'd be greatly appreciated.

 If you want to try the code out, there is an spkg and two patches in
 http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mhansen/symbolics/.  These should
 install and apply cleanly to Sage 3.4.2.

 I'll try to be around in IRC most of the day tomorrow. Sometime during
 the day or evening, we'll set up a public notebook for people to try
 things out and try to break things.

I just noticed

sage: sqrt(x)^2
  x

sage: sqrt(2)^2
  sqrt(2)^2

- Robert

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL

2009-05-07 Thread Gonzalo Tornaria


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Brian Granger ellisonbg@gmail.com wrote:
 * The JPEG stands on its own and can be used independently of GIMP.

Beware... copyright law is more about copying and distribution,
than about use. Besides, when I post a notebook, or publish a sage
script in a book, I'm not using Sage, anyways... Moreover, when I read
the script (e.g. reading the book for learning or fun), I am using
the script independently of Sage.

 * The part of GIMP that is licensed under the GPL is its source code.
 I am not sure, but I think it is C++.  Derived works of GIMP must
 therefore also be C++ programs or a program in another language that
 is able of directly linking to and calling C++.

Auch... then, if I take GIMP source code, and carefully translate it
100% into, say... lisp, then the resulting work is not a C++ program,
and therefore not a derived work. BTW this is a braindead
implementation of lisp which cannot directly link to and call C++ (in
case it matters).



By the way, a technical point which may not be that relevant but which
causes some confusion:

Say  I take source code from your GPLed program, and use it in my own
code (no doubt a derived work). Then I distribute my program without a
license, or with a GPL-incompatible license. Does it follow that my
program is GPL?

I think NOT. It only follows that I may be infringing your copyright,
because you never gave me permission to do that. You would need to sue
me, and then I could get away by just removing your code from my
program and paying you damages for all the distribution that I did so
far without your authorization. I wouldn't be forced to GPL my code in
any case.

Gonzalo

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL

2009-05-07 Thread Gonzalo Tornaria


Gee... is Sage a trademark?

Besides, I don't think a trademark is that strong... E.g. firefox is
a trademark of mozilla. Debian doesn't want to be bound by the terms
of use of said trademark, so the rename the program to iceweasel.
All visible occurrences of the name firefox are replaced by
iceweasel.  However, I can still launch iceweasel by running
firefox from the command line. Is this a trademark violation?

Now, if Sage where a trademark, then sage-ultralight would clearly
be a trademark violation. But say the program is called fuchsia
instead. Fuchsia is a clone of Sage, and it is meant to execute the
same scripts as Sage itself. Then it's not clear that it would be a
trademark violation for fuchsia to provide a sage.py file for
compatibility purposes, i.e. just so that import foo from sage.bar
works the same.

IOW, you cannot create a GUI toolkit named Qt, but you may be able
create a GUI toolkit with a different name and provide header files
using the same filenames as qt (at least wrt trademark... then there
is arguing about whether interfaces are copyrightable or not...)

Best,
Gonzalo

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Brian Granger ellisonbg@gmail.com wrote:

 sage-ultralight must have the same name as sage.  Then you get into
 copyright/trademark related issues (the name sage is already taken).
  Just the same I could create a GUI toolkit named Qt that was also
 released under the SACL license, but you can guess what would happen.

 Incorrect.  Python doesn't care what you call your program, it only
 cares about the filename.

 Huh?  Your example had two files or modules:

 foo.py
 

 from sage import Integer
 print Integer(2)+Integer(2)

 sage.py
 ==

 # Your ultralight-sage implementation with...
 # Whatever your implementation of Integer was

 Python doesn't care about the name foo.py.  But Python does care
 that about the name sage, otherwise the import of sage in foo.py
 won't work.  To get from sage import Integer to work, you *have to*
 name sage.py,well, sage.py.  But as I recall there is already a
 sage python project somewhere ;-).  I think the authors of the real
 sage project might have a problem with you naming your ultralight sage
 module sage.py.  Just like Fernando and myself would have a problem
 if another IPython named project came along.

 If somebody wants to go to court about a
 filename... that'll certainly be interesting.

 This is called trademark infringement, and it happens all the time.
 Remember Apple v. Apple?

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v._Apple_Computer

 Cheers,

 Brian


 


 



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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL

2009-05-07 Thread root


 Gee... is Sage a trademark?
 
 Besides, I don't think a trademark is that strong... E.g. firefox is
 a trademark of mozilla. Debian doesn't want to be bound by the terms
 of use of said trademark, so the rename the program to iceweasel.
 All visible occurrences of the name firefox are replaced by
 iceweasel.  However, I can still launch iceweasel by running
 firefox from the command line. Is this a trademark violation?
 
 Now, if Sage where a trademark, then sage-ultralight would clearly
 be a trademark violation. But say the program is called fuchsia
 instead. Fuchsia is a clone of Sage, and it is meant to execute the
 same scripts as Sage itself. Then it's not clear that it would be a
 trademark violation for fuchsia to provide a sage.py file for
 compatibility purposes, i.e. just so that import foo from sage.bar
 works the same.
 
 IOW, you cannot create a GUI toolkit named Qt, but you may be able
 create a GUI toolkit with a different name and provide header files
 using the same filenames as qt (at least wrt trademark... then there
 is arguing about whether interfaces are copyrightable or not...)

Trademark violations occur if the use of the mark causes confusion.
If someone copied Sage (e.g. a fork) and called it fushsia it would
not cause confusion. If starting fushsia was done by typing sage
or, when fushsia starts it announces itself as sage then there
is clearly a claim of confusion. Thus, to avoid confusion the
fushsia project should change all references to sage to read
fushsia, including the launching script.

The GPL says nothing about trademarks, as far as I'm aware.
It is based on copyright, a whole different area of law.

Tim Daly
 

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Gonzalo Tornaria
torna...@math.utexas.edu wrote:

 Gee... is Sage a trademark?

Yes, Sage is a trademark.  It's not mine though.  It is explicitly
listed here:

 http://www.sagenorthamerica.com/copyright_trademarks/

Another company changed their name to Sage software and write on their
webpage: 

*  Why change your name at this time?

* It was always the company’s intention to use the Sage brand name
worldwide; however, the Sage trademark was not available to us in
North America until recently.


See http://sagefaq.sagesoftwareinc.com/

William

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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Robert Bradshaw
rober...@math.washington.edu wrote:

 On May 7, 2009, at 4:10 AM, Mike Hansen wrote:

 Hello all,

 I've been doing a lot of work recent trying to get the new symbolics
 ready for Sage 4.0.  With 4.0 due out in 8 days, we're trying to do
 the final push.

 There are currently a lot of printing errors since Pynac/GiNaC prints
 expressions differently than Maxima does.  Some things still need
 doctests, and there are a few small features left to implement.  If
 you have some free time in the next few days and want to help out,
 it'd be greatly appreciated.

 If you want to try the code out, there is an spkg and two patches in
 http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mhansen/symbolics/.  These should
 install and apply cleanly to Sage 3.4.2.

 I'll try to be around in IRC most of the day tomorrow. Sometime during
 the day or evening, we'll set up a public notebook for people to try
 things out and try to break things.

 I just noticed

 sage: sqrt(x)^2
  x

 sage: sqrt(2)^2
  sqrt(2)^2


OK, that's definitely a bug.  By the way, testing this in Ginac
directly is useful, which anybody can do by typing ginsh on sage.math:

wst...@sage:~$ ginsh
ginsh - GiNaC Interactive Shell (ginac V1.4.1)
...
 sqrt(2)^2;
2

I've added this to the wiki.

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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0


William Stein wrote:
 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Robert Bradshaw
 rober...@math.washington.edu wrote:
 On May 7, 2009, at 4:10 AM, Mike Hansen wrote:

 Hello all,

 I've been doing a lot of work recent trying to get the new symbolics
 ready for Sage 4.0.  With 4.0 due out in 8 days, we're trying to do
 the final push.

 There are currently a lot of printing errors since Pynac/GiNaC prints
 expressions differently than Maxima does.  Some things still need
 doctests, and there are a few small features left to implement.  If
 you have some free time in the next few days and want to help out,
 it'd be greatly appreciated.

 If you want to try the code out, there is an spkg and two patches in
 http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mhansen/symbolics/.  These should
 install and apply cleanly to Sage 3.4.2.

 I'll try to be around in IRC most of the day tomorrow. Sometime during
 the day or evening, we'll set up a public notebook for people to try
 things out and try to break things.
 I just noticed

 sage: sqrt(x)^2
  x

 sage: sqrt(2)^2
  sqrt(2)^2

 
 OK, that's definitely a bug.  By the way, testing this in Ginac
 directly is useful, which anybody can do by typing ginsh on sage.math:
 
 wst...@sage:~$ ginsh
 ginsh - GiNaC Interactive Shell (ginac V1.4.1)
 ...
 sqrt(2)^2;
 2
 
 I've added this to the wiki.


It might be useful, if possible, to make sage -ginsh launch ginsh, or 
something similar.

Jason


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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0




On May 7, 5:04 pm, Jason Grout jason-s...@creativetrax.com wrote:
 William Stein wrote:

SNIP

  wst...@sage:~$ ginsh
  ginsh - GiNaC Interactive Shell (ginac V1.4.1)
  ...
  sqrt(2)^2;
  2

  I've added this to the wiki.

 It might be useful, if possible, to make sage -ginsh launch ginsh, or
 something similar.

Well, ginsh isn't available from inside Sage, i.e. pynac doesn't seem
to build it, so I would be -1 on this. And it is longer than typing
ginsh anyway.

 Jason

Cheers,

Michael
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[sage-devel] Re: Symbolics and Sage 4.0


On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 5:10 PM, mabshoff mabsh...@googlemail.com wrote:



 On May 7, 5:04 pm, Jason Grout jason-s...@creativetrax.com wrote:
 William Stein wrote:

 SNIP

  wst...@sage:~$ ginsh
  ginsh - GiNaC Interactive Shell (ginac V1.4.1)
  ...
  sqrt(2)^2;
  2

  I've added this to the wiki.

 It might be useful, if possible, to make sage -ginsh launch ginsh, or
 something similar.

 Well, ginsh isn't available from inside Sage, i.e. pynac doesn't seem
 to build it, so I would be -1 on this. And it is longer than typing
 ginsh anyway.


Michael's right, your suggestion turns out to make no sense, as it is
impossible to build ginsh without using the non-forked version of
ginac (!= pynac), and having the huge CLN library built, which we
don't use in Sage.


William

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[sage-devel] Re: JavaScript Graph editor

2009-05-07 Thread Rado


New version is up:

http://www.math.uiuc.edu/~rkirov2/processing/grapheditor.html

The short changelog:
1) By popular demand, when you drag a vertex out of the page the edges
turn red to indicate you are going to lose it and it is not erased
until you release the button.
2) There is an accompanying python script which preps ups the graph
data in JS format for easy copy/paste to get the same graph in the
editor.
3) The edges of the selected vertex are now blue. This is just a
visual clue.

Rado

On May 5, 2:52 pm, rjf fate...@gmail.com wrote:
 On May 5, 10:53 am, Andras Salamon andras.sala...@comlab.ox.ac.uk
 wrote:
 .

  I thought papers like your
     http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/papers/graphing7.pdf
  were highly appropriate for the Graph Drawing symposium?
     http://facweb.cs.depaul.edu/gd2009/gd2009.asp
  (Submission deadline is 31 May 2009.)

  Or is that one of the upgraded venues?

 Thanks for the suggestion.

 These people are doing very sophisticated things in laying out graphs,
 and have a substantial history of algorithm development, competition
 in a set of benchmarks, etc.  My contribution would be to say I wrote
 this relatively naive program, using a graphics toolkit,  in the
 programming language Lisp, so it can be called from a computer algebra
 system.

 Since it's not advancing the art of graph display, I would not expect
 it to be of interest.

 Something notable about it is that it's under 300 lines of code.

 Probably not a winner for this conference  :)
 RJF
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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL

2009-05-07 Thread Robert Dodier


Brian Granger wrote:

 Are you arguing that jpeg's produced by GIMP are all GPL'd?

No.

 I agree that it is definitely possible to release non-programs, such
 as JPEGs, under the GPL.

OK, I misunderstood. I thought you were claiming just the opposite.

Robert Dodier

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL

2009-05-07 Thread Robert Dodier


Gonzalo Tornaria wrote:

 Auch... then, if I take GIMP source code, and carefully translate it
 100% into, say... lisp, then the resulting work is not a C++ program,
 and therefore not a derived work.

Careful. I'm pretty sure a translation (be it from natural
language or computer language) is a derived work.

IANAL,

Robert Dodier

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[sage-devel] Sage Lightweight LiveCD feedback.

2009-05-07 Thread Lucio Lastra


Hi everybody,

I built a LiveCD with Sage that intends to be minimal in
all senses.

It has some rough edges yet and much to be improved,
that's why I invite you to download it from here:

http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/luciolastra/isos/v2/

try it out and give me any feedback (bugs, possible improvements,
etc) on it to make it better.

Greetings,

Lucio Lastra.
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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL


 Indeed... but the OP claimed that a jpeg couldn't be a derived work of
 gimp because it's not a C++ program, which is a non sequitur.

Do you actually think a JPEG is a derived for of GIMP or do you
disagree with how I was arguing?  If you merely disagree with my
argument, please don't misquote a small portion of it out of context
and use fancy latin words to make yourself sound smart.  English words
work just fine.

Most of all, everyone, please go read the damn GPL!

Cheers,

Brian

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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL

2009-05-07 Thread kcrisman



 Most of all, everyone, please go read the damn GPL!

Out of curiosity, does anyone on the list actually know a lawyer at
FSF?  I wouldn't be surprised if someone does with all the Boston
connections.

If so, getting even a small piece of FSF's official position,
without all the IANAL stuff, on whether (say) a notebook worksheet
containing small programs without import statements or whatever
would be a derived work or not might be actually useful in the long
run, not even sage-flame bait.  At this point it really seems like the
whole thread is about what a derived work that links is, and these
are not necessarily well-defined terms, at least judging by this
thread's length :)

Just putting it out there,
- kcrisman
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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL

2009-05-07 Thread Robert Bradshaw


On May 7, 2009, at 8:53 PM, kcrisman wrote:



 Most of all, everyone, please go read the damn GPL!

 Out of curiosity, does anyone on the list actually know a lawyer at
 FSF?  I wouldn't be surprised if someone does with all the Boston
 connections.

I think (hope) that the restrictions and freedoms the GPL puts on a  
derivative work are understood by most people here. What is under  
debate is what, exactly, constitutes a derivative work. This is out  
of the jurisdiction of the GPL or any other license to define--it is  
part of copyright law.

I don't think anyone here honestly thinks that a photo edited by GIMP  
falls under this criteria, or that porting a program from one  
language to another doesn't--these are hyperboles made by people on  
the list to make a point (often with a heavy dose of sarcasm).

 If so, getting even a small piece of FSF's official position,
 without all the IANAL stuff, on whether (say) a notebook worksheet
 containing small programs without import statements or whatever
 would be a derived work or not might be actually useful in the long
 run, not even sage-flame bait.  At this point it really seems like the
 whole thread is about what a derived work that links is, and these
 are not necessarily well-defined terms, at least judging by this
 thread's length :)

One could ask the FSF, but one shouldn't expect an unbiased opinion  
(or variance from their FAQ) if one does. (They are lawyers though,  
unlike most (all?) of the folks that hang out here).

- Robert


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[sage-devel] Re: Clarification of Sage and GPL