On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:46:59 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 08:30 PM 1/17/2005, you wrote:
Yes, I understand that. But that would only be an issue if the Bahai lamp
is the only one with light. If light shone through muiltiple lamps, you can
pick any lamp you
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:46:15 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
I might have. Personally, I would have to make a serious study of
Daniel and Revelation before I would feel really confident responding
in a specific way. Offhand my impression is that Biblical prophecies
:
Yes, I understand that. But that would only be an issue if the Bahai lamp
is the only one with light. If light shone through muiltiple lamps, you
can pick any lamp you want, even if for silly reasons like it was the lamp
you grew up with, or it was the lamp your in-laws wanted you to use,
Gilberto,
At 08:28 PM 1/16/2005, you wrote:
On some level I sympathize. Mathematicians are trained to see statements as
simply false on the strength of a single counter-example. But full
mathematical rigor doesn't get you very far in the real world.
The work I do isn't very utilitarian. ;-)
Just to zoom in on one point..
Gilberto:
What I'm saying is that the bulk of the people on the Christian side are
much more open to the idea of future prophets. And people on the Muslim
side have a clearer sense that no prophets are coming.
Mark:
On average, they use the word more
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:02:54 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 08:36 AM 1/17/2005, you wrote:
And I've NEVER said in all of this that most Christians think the Bible has
been added to or replaced. But it is easier to find Christians who claim to
receive
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:25:42 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
Also, I don't think that the fact that there may, proportionately, be more
people calling themselves Christians who claim to be prophets, messiahs,
and the like than those calling themselves Muslims
Gilberto,
At 03:47 PM 1/17/2005, you wrote:
But the fact that one of those lists was almost 4 times longer than the other
one is not just some coincidence, and its not just that you might be more
familiar with Western examples.
In terms of the size of the list, I offered an explanation.
With
Gilberto,
At 04:00 PM 1/17/2005, you wrote:
There might be more space for varied religious groups in general, in more
pluralistic societies. But Christian prophets still had a large presence in
Christianity from a very early point in time.
That is true, but, until recently, they largely
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:59:55 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If you
believe all the prophets are one, and God's religion is one, then the
Bahai faith is redundant and Islam (in the sense of following the
Quran and the sunnah of Muhammad, saaws) is sufficient. Are you
willing
If you love the light, then the lamp doesn't matter (much). Then you should be happy with the light from your lamp, and other people can be fine with the light from theirlamp. But it's all good since it's all the same light.JS:
That is a nice way to see it. No matter what lamp you use, the dark
Gilberto,At 07:49 PM 1/17/2005, you wrote:That's not what I"m hearing from Bahais. What I tend to hear is that the lamp doesn't matter but then they insist that people should use their lamp.I think that point is that when one accepts the Light, the Will of God, one accepts it in whatever Lamp it
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:15:07 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 07:49 PM 1/17/2005, you wrote:
That's not what Im hearing from Bahais. What I tend to hear is that the
lamp doesn't matter but then they insist that people should use their
lamp.
I think that point
Gilberto,
At 08:30 PM 1/17/2005, you wrote:
Yes, I understand that. But that would only be an issue if the Bahai lamp is
the only one with light. If light shone through muiltiple lamps, you can pick
any lamp you want, even if for silly reasons like it was the lamp you grew up
with, or it was
Gilberto:
I might have. Personally, I would have to make a serious study of
Daniel and Revelation before I would feel really confident responding
in a specific way. Offhand my impression is that Biblical prophecies
are really murky, and given the range of different interpretations
given to
Gilberto,
At 10:04 PM 1/15/2005, you wrote:
[28] And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets,
third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers,
administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. [29] Are all apostles?
Are all prophets? Are all
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 03:29:23 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
Have you looked at what I posted on Christian prophets (that was in the
subject).
Mark:
If you mean the quotation by somebody from one of the Orthodox churches -
yes, I read the entire piece. Just as
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 08:51:51 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In terms of the above, there is a huge difference between how the
issue is played out in this case. In the case of Qadianis, there is a
strong consensus that they actually aren't Muslim, specifically for
the reason that
Gilberto:The followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (who claimed to be the Mahdi andthe Second Coming of Christ) identify themselves as Muslim. Themovement split into "Qadianis" who say he was a prophet and "Lahoris"who don't. There have been laws on the books in Pakistan declaringthem (at least the
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 14:01:15 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 01:27 PM 1/16/2005, you wrote:
But self-defined fundamentalist Christians who actually believe that
Catholics aren't Christian are themselves a marginalized group.
Mark:
I am afraid I don't understand
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:31:40 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
JS
In Islam, Muhammad Himself is a Prophet. Why? Because the
word 'Khatam' is a reference that no other Muhammad will return until the
End.
Gilberto:
No, that there will be no new prophets. Jesus already came before
Gilberto:I've tried hard to follow the theology and it just isn't plausible. Itoften seems like Bahai theology is a large exercise in having yourcake and eating too. Prophets are similar in some respects, anddifferent in other respects. I wouldn't call them "one". If youbelieve all the prophets
Gilberto:
Not exactly. Consider 1 Corinthians 12
[4] Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
[5] and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
[6] and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who
inspires them all in every one.
[7] To each is given the
What
I'm saying is that it is possible to come up with a third (perhaps
even one of the first two) concept of prophet. And when we apply it
to both belief systems, you get the above result.
Dear Gilberto,
Are we looking at what Christianity and Islam actually teach at that point
or how we want
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 17:32:38 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi, Gilberto,
Mark:
I prefer not to construct such broad (macro) definitions. In my
experience, they are rarely productive, and they tend to dilute the
various concepts pointed to by the words.
Gilberto:
If that
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:57:36 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 09:44 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote:
What I would say is that religious exclusivism is one thing, and
finality is another. And finality in Islam is alot clearer, more
decisive, more emphasized than finality
Gilberto,
At 02:44 AM 1/14/2005, you wrote:
The fact that you have to add any kind of caveat (most conservative)
underlines the fact that there is a difference. For the overwhelming majority
of Muslims, not believing in the finality of Muhammad's prophethood excludes
one from Islam. The
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 06:51:30 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 02:44 AM 1/14/2005, you wrote:
The fact that you have to add any kind of caveat (most conservative)
underlines the fact that there is a difference. For the overwhelming
majority of Muslims, not
Gilberto,
You simply reposted my message.
With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:05:01 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
Now that we all seem to be in agreement all of a sudden, how do you read the
following passage from the Kitab-i-Iqan that I quoted earlier?
Beside this passage, there is yet another verse in the Gospel
Gilberto,
At 02:55 PM 1/14/2005, you wrote:
I agree. This is one of the things which for me strongly indicates that
Christianity is more open to future prophets coming than Islam.
Well, we don't seem to agree on this point. I still contend that there is no
such thing as prophets. There is only
I
think that it should be possible for us to come up with a reasonable
definition of prophet such that a good number of Christians will
allow for future prophets after Jesus but the typical Muslim will not
allow for future prophets after Muhammad.
Dear Gilberto,
Obviously if one wanted to come
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:37:27 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I
think that it should be possible for us to come up with a reasonable
definition of prophet such that a good number of Christians will
allow for future prophets after Jesus but the typical Muslim will not
allow for
The various theological positions on the subject have been differently
classified by theologians. One classification distinguishes four main
opinions:
1) an ecclesiocentric universe and an exclusive Christology.
2) a Christocentric universe and an inclusive Christology;
3) a theocentric
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:14:47 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 12:06 PM 1/12/2005, you wrote:
I'm not blaming them. I'm describing them. All I'm saying is that the
concept of finality of revelation is not as essential, or emphasized, or as
clear in
Prof Mark Foster said to my kind brother Gilberto:
You don't think that the statement, I am the Way, the Truth, and the
Life.
No one comes to the Father except through Me, is the principal argument
used by the fundamentalist and conservative evangelical websites against
Islam? Mark Foster
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:51:36 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G: But the same isn't true in Christianity (at least not as I've
experienced it or studied it). Christianity as a whole CLEARLY allows
for prophets coming after Jesus. I'm not sure why there is even any
question.
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:00:38 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
[I am the way the truth and the life...etc]
At 03:07 AM 1/13/2005, you wrote:
But there the issue is exclusivity and the emphasis isn't on being
chronologically last. Maybe its a fine distinction and I'm
Ibelieve the main problempreventing us from completely agreeingwith one anotheris that we are using the same word to mean different things. I will try to explain what I mean below.
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:51:36 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: G:
In a message dated 1/13/2005 12:58:35 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
No. The Christian New Testament was finished (and presumably started)well after Jesus earthly ministry. Bible-believing Christiansnecessarily have to accept that revelation comes after Jesus.
But they
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:20:04 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I believe the main problem preventing us from completely agreeing with one
another is that we are using the same word to mean different things. I will
try to explain what I mean below.
G: I think I see what you are
Gilberto,
At 12:57 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote:
No. The Christian New Testament was finished (and presumably started) well
after Jesus earthly ministry. Bible-believing Christians necessarily have to
accept that revelation comes after Jesus.
Except that most evangelical and fundamentalist
I think this discussion is getting very frustrating because people
seem unwilling to understand what Im saying and are simply refusing
to see where I am coming from or see it as having any validity.
I understand that if you ignore all the evidence that I'm mentioning
and *choose* to not make
After this servant posted this afternoon there are already so many letters
on the List.
I shall focus with your indulgence on a few postings by Gilberto, Mark, and
John. I liked very much Scotts and Mr Anarakis too.
First I quote faithfully.
Gilberto, my dear brother, writes;
**I'm not sure
Gilberto,
At 05:48 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote:
But they are not saying identical things.
I have not been saying that any two religious networks, or religions within
them, are saying identical things. In fact, I have insisted on the opposite
point of view. However, it does appear to me that most
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:55:19 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 05:48 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote:
But they are not saying identical things.
I have not been saying that any two religious networks, or religions within
them, are saying identical
things. In fact, I
Gilberto,
At 09:44 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote:
What I would say is that religious exclusivism is one thing, and finality
is another. And finality in Islam is alot clearer, more decisive, more
emphasized than finality in Judaism or Christianity.
You do not think that most conservative Christians
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