[Cooker] Re: No Subject
Le lun 17/11/2003 à 19:23, Un expéditeur inconnu a écrit :
Seeing others linux partitions is what i can call : advanced stuff - so
this should not be enable by default ( and hard disk will show them ).
So, we should make it easier to use Windows, and less easy to use Linux?
easier to see where are the windows partitions.
A normal users should noyt browse the filesystem, that's why people ask
for multiroot view with the Home directory at first place because a user
should only have to access his files in his Home, and, for people with
multiboot in a desktop usage, easily shares somes files between win and
linux ( divx, mp3, doc, firmware, etc .. )
A normal user ( desktop environment ) should not see others linux
partitions except his home directory.
So, if they have a backup partition or something (easy enough to do with
diskdrake), they shouldn't be able to access it as easily as a Windows
partition?
Not needed as they decide where to put it so they know where to go !
So see / and /home on his desktop
is useless for him. Most of the times this kind of users put files in
their home directory and open/save some files in their windows
partitions in order to share them with windows. So they need to know
directly and easily where is their home directory ( the home icon ), and
where is/are their windows partition(s).
Showing FAT32/NTFS drives is what I called basic stuff for newbies. For
example, the user need to install the firmware for his modem to make the
connection work under linux, so he dl the firmware under windows and
then his first question is : Can i have an access to my windows drives ?
If yes, where can i access them ?
At least 5 times a week on a forum where you have many newbies we have
this kind of question. Mandrake control center ? they don't know or
don't know where to go ( MountPoint is chinese for them )
But they shouldn't need to even see diskdrake now (I assume that's what
you mean), they can either look in /mnt/windows, or /mnt/win_{c,d} etc,
or browse in devices (but it would be better if you didn't have to know
all 6 buttons in Konqueror to be able to browse devices).
They don't know that their windows partitions are accessible hanks to
/mnt/windows or /mnt/win*
They don't knwo what mount points means !
They used to have a multiroot view ( A: C: D: CDROM ... ) ! They don't
even know that rpmdrake exist ! Howmany times I tell some newbies to use
urpmi/rpmdrake to install packages ! They don't even know how to perform
search to see if they have a package and if the package is installed or
not ! They don't even bother to browse completely the menu !
This
way you can easily disable the icons. Gnome have this feature but only
for removable devices ( CDROM/Floppy )
On top of that windows partitions should be writable ( FAT32 only of
course ) by normal users ( so umask=3D0 should be set by default for
security level high ). So by default diskdrake set umask=3D0 for
windows
FAT32 partitions during install and when the user select a security
level higher than standard, then msec remove umask=3D0.
This is already the case AFAIK (last time I looked at the code). What
security level did you install with?
since which version ? I don't know for me as I don't install 9.2 on HD
where there was some FAT32 partitions, but on forum I have many times
users saying that they can't write on their windows partitions ( 9.1,
maybe 9.2 but will have to check ) at least if they was able to find
where was their windows partitions.
Look in CVS, file libDrakX/fs.pm (line 468 in cooker)
if (isFat($part) || member('vfat', split(':', $part-{type})) ||
isThisFs('auto', $part)) {
put_in_hash($options, {
user =3D 1, noexec =3D 0,
}) if $opts{is_removable};
put_in_hash($options, {
'umask=3D0' =3D $opts{security} 3,
'iocharset=3D' =3D $opts{iocharset}, 'codepage=3D' =3D $opts{codepage},
});
}
So, users who want this by default should install in the less secure
option. Of course, a better description should be given for umask=3D0 in
the diskdrake options.
The description seems to be fine. standard stand for which level ? Most
people don't care much and just click next when they reach security
settings. If standard is level 3, we'd better have umask=0' =
$opts{security} = 3,
By default most system are installed with level standard
Note : it seems it's level 2
I'm talking for home/desktop usage. in multiuser/workstation usage, the
sysadmin have the responsibility to enable/disable this feature. Now for
desktop/home usage when several people have access to the computer the
problem is Linux/unix rights limitations ( need ACL and easy way to
managed ACL ) or need away to specify that this group and only this
group of users can access theses drives.
Re: [Cooker] Re: No Subject
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Hash: SHA1
FACORAT Fabrice wrote:
Le lun 17/11/2003 à 19:23, Un expéditeur inconnu a écrit :
Seeing others linux partitions is what i can call : advanced stuff - so
this should not be enable by default ( and hard disk will show them ).
So, we should make it easier to use Windows, and less easy to use Linux?
easier to see where are the windows partitions.
A normal users should noyt browse the filesystem, that's why people ask
for multiroot view with the Home directory at first place because a user
should only have to access his files in his Home, and, for people with
multiboot in a desktop usage, easily shares somes files between win and
linux ( divx, mp3, doc, firmware, etc .. )
Again, you're confusing the limitations of KDE's file system abstraction
with the function of $HOME. Windows partitions don't deserve links in
$HOME. They must be easy to find, just as any other filesystem should be
easy to find. This doesn't mean they should be treated specially (IMHO).
I feel that if you do everything to make it easy to keep using Windows,
how can you even suggest to someone to try Linux (since you seem to be
saying that Windows is better, if you need to be able to use it so
much). What about the user who doesn't use Windows If we don't think
about this, how can we expect users to migrate totally??? If we don't
expect users to migrate totally, why are we even wasting our time making
things easy for them?
Yes, it must be easy to access the Windows partition, but no easier than
to access the Redhat partition (etc).
A normal user ( desktop environment ) should not see others linux
partitions except his home directory.
So, if they have a backup partition or something (easy enough to do with
diskdrake), they shouldn't be able to access it as easily as a Windows
partition?
Not needed as they decide where to put it so they know where to go !
But the user can just as well decide where they want to mount their
Windows partition (probably more easily).
So see / and /home on his desktop
is useless for him. Most of the times this kind of users put files in
their home directory and open/save some files in their windows
partitions in order to share them with windows. So they need to know
directly and easily where is their home directory ( the home icon ), and
where is/are their windows partition(s).
Showing FAT32/NTFS drives is what I called basic stuff for newbies. For
example, the user need to install the firmware for his modem to make the
connection work under linux, so he dl the firmware under windows and
then his first question is : Can i have an access to my windows drives ?
If yes, where can i access them ?
At least 5 times a week on a forum where you have many newbies we have
this kind of question. Mandrake control center ? they don't know or
don't know where to go ( MountPoint is chinese for them )
But they shouldn't need to even see diskdrake now (I assume that's what
you mean), they can either look in /mnt/windows, or /mnt/win_{c,d} etc,
or browse in devices (but it would be better if you didn't have to know
all 6 buttons in Konqueror to be able to browse devices).
They don't know that their windows partitions are accessible hanks to
/mnt/windows or /mnt/win*
They don't knwo what mount points means !
Who needs to know what mount point is to look in /mnt ??
They used to have a multiroot view ( A: C: D: CDROM ... ) ! They don't
even know that rpmdrake exist ! Howmany times I tell some newbies to use
urpmi/rpmdrake to install packages ! They don't even know how to perform
search to see if they have a package and if the package is installed or
not ! They don't even bother to browse completely the menu !
Well, if users can't browse the menus, how do they ever find paint.exe
in Windows? It's 3 levels deep!!! I guess no-one ever uses paint.exe (or
Solitaire), simply because they can't find it.
Do the users ever uninstall software in Windows? Who told them where the
control panel is
Sorry, but we're not here to make Mandrake exactly like Windows (that's
what Lindows does, except not quite as secure or easy to use etc etc).
This
way you can easily disable the icons. Gnome have this feature but only
for removable devices ( CDROM/Floppy )
On top of that windows partitions should be writable ( FAT32 only of
course ) by normal users ( so umask=3D0 should be set by default for
security level high ). So by default diskdrake set umask=3D0 for
windows
FAT32 partitions during install and when the user select a security
level higher than standard, then msec remove umask=3D0.
This is already the case AFAIK (last time I looked at the code). What
security level did you install with?
since which version ? I don't know for me as I don't install 9.2 on HD
where there was some FAT32 partitions, but on forum I have many times
users saying that they can't write on their windows partitions ( 9.1,
maybe 9.2 but will have to check ) at least if they was
Re: [Cooker] Re: No Subject
Le mer 19/11/2003 à 15:18, Buchan Milne a écrit : FACORAT Fabrice wrote: easier to see where are the windows partitions. A normal users should noyt browse the filesystem, that's why people ask for multiroot view with the Home directory at first place because a user should only have to access his files in his Home, and, for people with multiboot in a desktop usage, easily shares somes files between win and linux ( divx, mp3, doc, firmware, etc .. ) Again, you're confusing the limitations of KDE's file system abstraction with the function of $HOME. Windows partitions don't deserve links in $HOME. They must be easy to find, just as any other filesystem should be easy to find. This doesn't mean they should be treated specially (IMHO). I feel that if you do everything to make it easy to keep using Windows, how can you even suggest to someone to try Linux (since you seem to be saying that Windows is better, if you need to be able to use it so much). What about the user who doesn't use Windows If we don't think about this, how can we expect users to migrate totally??? If we don't expect users to migrate totally, why are we even wasting our time making things easy for them? because sometimes they can't as we can't provides some application they need. providing easy access to windows partition is not a showstopper for a complete migration from migration. This is useful during the transition period. Yes, it must be easy to access the Windows partition, but no easier than to access the Redhat partition (etc). IMHO this is wrong. On desktop environment we target people wanting to migrate from windows and/or wanting to use linux. Most young people that will try mdk may still have a dual boot to windows because they need : - games - educational application for their mother/young sister/brother/... - use dreamweaver ( Crossover officejust make Dreamweaver and at least works partially ), etc ... Because of this when they may decide to share some files between windows and linux ( for example divx/mp3 ) in order to be able to access them in both world. Another kind of situation I usually see on forum : modem firmware. Indeed the user install linux ( dl edition ) and his USB modem doesn't work because he need to put the firmware, so he load windows, take/dl the firmware, then come back to linux and most of the time we see him on the forum saying : where can i access my windows partitions in order to take the firmware for my modem ? I see this at least once a week ! and i follow only one forum ! So, if they have a backup partition or something (easy enough to do with diskdrake), they shouldn't be able to access it as easily as a Windows partition? Not needed as they decide where to put it so they know where to go ! But the user can just as well decide where they want to mount their Windows partition (probably more easily). 1°/ during install they don't see diskdrake ( most of them will just let mdk do this automatically ) and they don't know where are the mountpoints of their windows partitions. On top of that they don't know what a mountpoint stands for. 2°/ after installation, they don't know that diskdrake exist, and even if they know MCC and maybe launch it one time, most of the time they don't even dig through MCC in order to see what's available. Last week end, i had to clean a windows computers that some people where using since 2 years. They were friends of my girlfriend. The problem was that something pretending working in informatique installed many games/apps on their computers ( so very very very long start menu, many icons on desktop ). You know what ? to remove a game/app, this guy just remove the directory of the game. the same for this 2 peoples. Worst, someone tell them to use Add/Remove program, but they don't try to know where it was located and never use it ! Find it is so simple ! just launch Config panel and you can DIRECTLY see it ( winMe ). So imagine for people when using MCC ... if they can't see it at first sight, it doesn't exist or they don't bother to search for it. They don't know that their windows partitions are accessible hanks to /mnt/windows or /mnt/win* They don't knwo what mount points means ! Who needs to know what mount point is to look in /mnt ?? where are my FAT32 partition ? in /mnt. If i don't launch mcc/diskdrake, how can i know that I have to go to /mnt ? They used to have a multiroot view ( A: C: D: CDROM ... ) ! They don't even know that rpmdrake exist ! Howmany times I tell some newbies to use urpmi/rpmdrake to install packages ! They don't even know how to perform search to see if they have a package and if the package is installed or not ! They don't even bother to browse completely the menu ! Well, if users can't browse the menus, how do they ever find paint.exe in Windows? It's 3 levels deep!!! I guess no-one ever uses paint.exe (or Solitaire), simply because they can't find it. some people act
[Cooker] Re: No Subject
Le ven 24/10/2003 à 21:12, Guillaume Cottenceau a écrit : Guillaume Cottenceau [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: - 2.4.22-rc2q5. [...] * add packet cdvd support (svetoslav). What amazes me is that we've had it in the kernel of 9.2-RC1 and 9.2-RC2, and it still managed to be, erhm, featured, in the final version. All people who say we should do more beta and RC versions see that such a big problem passed one month of RC-testing... Real problem would perhaps be to enlarge our testing community? Anyway, that's not the topic for this day :). mmm I've passed suggestions to our management as to what to do now - I think we should act *fast* and be responsible, but I don't know what will be decided exactly. new iso with updates kernel, that's the only solution at least for dl club edition. For Powerpack ... new PowerPack version ... So we are going to have a 9.2.1 ? --- Deux coqs vivaient en paix ; une poule survint... Jean de La Fontaine
[Cooker] Re: No Subject
Stay put man, coders very often get so fond of their own 'tunnel vision' that they fall in love with their own patch. Mdk has already got bad reputation for patches that destroy for administrators - your activities are needed as their salt. regards guran
