[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
http://www.slideshare.net/mdesjardins/demystifying-maven - Could someone add this link in MAVEN wiki? It helped me to begin with Lift yesterday. -Original Message- From: liftweb@googlegroups.com [mailto:lift...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Axel Rose Sent: 04 May 2009 03:55 To: liftweb@googlegroups.com Subject: [Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)! Formalities or content? http://wiki.liftweb.net/index.php/Maven_Mini_Guide must be improved. For people not accustomed to maven it is very hard to grasp the versions/release/snapshot/pom dependencies. Various articles use various version numbers when building examples. I, personally, got lost. How does a user learns from reading the wiki how to register? Regards Axel == Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html == --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
Examples, examples, examples, including scala. The scala-lang site is a bit daunting. I think you'll get more traction on Lift if you help people to get to grips with scala as well as lift. I have no idea whether I'm a typical newcomer, but I have come from Java (previously other things going back to pascal) but as I'm not from a computer science background have no real knowledge or understanding of functional programming. Lots of scala stuff is pretty strange territory. People want a tool like Lift to do stuff quickly and easily. I'm constantly having to reference my set of 4 books (3 of which are pre-publication) just to get the scala way of doing something simple. I think people should be strongly encouraged to things they did to solve particular problems - not so much as an example of best practice but more I did it like this, is there a better way? I personally find the discussions like the one on the scala user mailing list on treatment of enumerations in java vs scala useful and interesting but they too often reference what to me are still esoteric parts of the language that I have yet to master. So wiki pages where you could have similar threads but with a culture of illustrating every comment with a real example would be a great way to learn. I suspect most people from my type of background are starting out by writing java-style code in scala and are struggling with refactoring it to more native scala. Somewhere we could put our fledgling code up for constructive criticism without having to keep prefacing it with Newbie question: would be good. Tim On Apr 21, 8:38 pm, Charles F. Munat c...@munat.com wrote: I am charged with coming up with a site map/information architecture for our hopefully-soon-to-be-updated wiki. What would most benefit you on a documentation wiki? What sorts of things are you having the most problems with? Please submit suggestions for a wiki outline, as well as any other ideas you have. For example, ideas on wiki structure are welcome. You could even suggest your own outline. Please participate! Yes, you, lurker! We want to know what you need. I'll collect all the ideas this weekend, consolidate them, and present a suggested outline (road map) for the documentation wiki. Thanks! Yes! If you are reading this, then I am talking to you. Speak up. Chas. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 7:58 AM, richard.car...@me.com richard.car...@me.com wrote: My personal view is that a worked example of a fully featured eCommerce type site would be most useful. Even something as simple as a cut down Amazon style store with inventory management would be a great start. That would be a useful foundation for the rest of Lift's features (add-ons such as online chat style help). So, there are 7 example applications of different stripes that come with the Lift source distribution and there's also ESME, the Unconference example in lift-samples (on GitHub) and PocketChange. These example cover virtually every part of Lift and rather than being a whole e-commerce application, they are modules that can be woven together. Given the pitfall of having a complex monolithic app, we chose to highlight individual pieces of functionality. What pieces of functionality are missing for you? I'm looking at technologies for rewriting a web site with a lot of dynamic content, currently written entirely in Java 1.4 and JSPs. Scala and Lift look promising, but the lack of documentation and non trivial worked examples The unconference code ran last year's Scala Lift Off. The ESME code is currently is use at a number of fortune 100 companies. In terms of the lack of documentation, that's exactly what we're looking to rectify. So, what documentation do you need that are not provided between the Getting Started Guide, Exploring Lift, and the ScalaDocs are missing? mean that despite Lift's 1.0 status, I don't feel I could use it in its current form. Hope this is of some help, Regards Richard -- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890 Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Git some: http://github.com/dpp --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
Hi Chas, Glad to see that there will be some time spent expanding and refining the Lift documentation, good docs are definitely the sign of a well run project. I am one of those lurkers you speak about, so I thought I'd speak up and give my input. I would like to see explanations on creating various concepts, useful across many different site types, with a discussion on the how and why they would be implemented the way they are in Lift. This post from David: http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb/browse_thread/thread/17e08ec0422721db# which explains both why there is no baked in User concept in Lift and how one would go about creating a User concept is exactly what I mean. If this type of thing was formalized into some documentation I think it would help greatly in understanding Lift. -Chris On Apr 21, 3:38 pm, Charles F. Munat c...@munat.com wrote: I am charged with coming up with a site map/information architecture for our hopefully-soon-to-be-updated wiki. What would most benefit you on a documentation wiki? What sorts of things are you having the most problems with? Please submit suggestions for a wiki outline, as well as any other ideas you have. For example, ideas on wiki structure are welcome. You could even suggest your own outline. Please participate! Yes, you, lurker! We want to know what you need. I'll collect all the ideas this weekend, consolidate them, and present a suggested outline (road map) for the documentation wiki. Thanks! Yes! If you are reading this, then I am talking to you. Speak up. Chas. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 6:33 AM, Axel Rose axel.roesl...@googlemail.comwrote: Hello Charles, I know I'm a bit late for your request to consolidate the lift wiki. Anyway: It's really puzzling to me to get the version numbers right, when creating a new archetype with maven. The Maven mini guide at http://wiki.liftweb.net/index.php/Maven_Mini_Guide is not so helpful. Perhaps it would be good to color the version numbers and clearly state what will be downloaded from maven and what to do if I wanted to use snapshots. Does pom.xml need to be changed? A howto for Google App Engine usage is missing. Here I'd need to use snapshots. Also: Make it easier for guests to put suggestions into the wiki. I'm too lazy to register. We've done just the opposite. You can only get an account if you make a request (Derek and I create the accounts). We've had far too much wiki vandalism and are clamping down by making sure everybody who has write-access to the wiki is willing to ask for an account. Regards, Axel. -- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890 Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Git some: http://github.com/dpp --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
My personal view is that a worked example of a fully featured eCommerce type site would be most useful. Even something as simple as a cut down Amazon style store with inventory management would be a great start. That would be a useful foundation for the rest of Lift's features (add-ons such as online chat style help). I'm looking at technologies for rewriting a web site with a lot of dynamic content, currently written entirely in Java 1.4 and JSPs. Scala and Lift look promising, but the lack of documentation and non trivial worked examples mean that despite Lift's 1.0 status, I don't feel I could use it in its current form. Hope this is of some help, Regards Richard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
I'd like to help with the wiki as well. Let me know if there is anything in particular that you would like me to do. --Bryan On May 3, 9:46 am, David Pollak feeder.of.the.be...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 6:33 AM, Axel Rose axel.roesl...@googlemail.comwrote: Hello Charles, I know I'm a bit late for your request to consolidate the lift wiki. Anyway: It's really puzzling to me to get the version numbers right, when creating a new archetype with maven. The Maven mini guide athttp://wiki.liftweb.net/index.php/Maven_Mini_Guide is not so helpful. Perhaps it would be good to color the version numbers and clearly state what will be downloaded from maven and what to do if I wanted to use snapshots. Does pom.xml need to be changed? A howto for Google App Engine usage is missing. Here I'd need to use snapshots. Also: Make it easier for guests to put suggestions into the wiki. I'm too lazy to register. We've done just the opposite. You can only get an account if you make a request (Derek and I create the accounts). We've had far too much wiki vandalism and are clamping down by making sure everybody who has write-access to the wiki is willing to ask for an account. Regards, Axel. -- Lift, the simply functional web frameworkhttp://liftweb.net Beginning Scalahttp://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890 Follow me:http://twitter.com/dpp Git some:http://github.com/dpp --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
Wow! Too lazy to register?! IMO, registration is a one-time event and is needed to combat spam / bot activity. Rather than having a system where people complain / suggest alterations, we prefer people to just get on and change them... Power to the people! On 03/05/2009 14:33, Axel Rose axel.roesl...@googlemail.com wrote: Also: Make it easier for guests to put suggestions into the wiki. I'm too lazy to register. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
Richard, its a shame you feel like that. Your comments about examples are noted, however you must bear in mind that both scala and lift are young (relatively speaking) and a lot of the applications that are out there, are behind corporate firewalls (including mine) - so don't be fooled into thinking lift is not production ready or feeling that its not usable, were just a little lacking right now in the documentation, but 100% *not* lacking in the implementation (lift rocks out) Stuff like ecommerce will grow up around lift as more people adopt it - the same was true for rails... When I started using rails there were naff all examples out there, so we just had to get on and make some - years later and the story is very different. The same will no doubt happen for Lift... Its just a waiting game - its people like your good self who can help with this: invest a bit of time and write some examples for the benefit and learning of all. Let me just say this, as its probably the best advice I can give: If you do decide to go with lift, you will not regret it. The rest of the lift team are some of the best developers and architects I have ever had the fortune to work with - and they all give up large amounts of their time to participate and help the community... To that end the lift community is one of the most intelligent and welcoming out there. Over the past two years this has pretty much been my experience and im sure others will concur. Good luck with your project and I hope you might reconsider your viewpoint on lift. Cheers, Tim On 03/05/2009 15:58, richard.car...@me.com richard.car...@me.com wrote: I'm looking at technologies for rewriting a web site with a lot of dynamic content, currently written entirely in Java 1.4 and JSPs. Scala and Lift look promising, but the lack of documentation and non trivial worked examples mean that despite Lift's 1.0 status, I don't feel I could use it in its current form. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
Thanks, Axel. Will take this under consideration. Chas. Axel Rose wrote: Hello Charles, I know I'm a bit late for your request to consolidate the lift wiki. Anyway: It's really puzzling to me to get the version numbers right, when creating a new archetype with maven. The Maven mini guide at http://wiki.liftweb.net/index.php/Maven_Mini_Guide is not so helpful. Perhaps it would be good to color the version numbers and clearly state what will be downloaded from maven and what to do if I wanted to use snapshots. Does pom.xml need to be changed? A howto for Google App Engine usage is missing. Here I'd need to use snapshots. Also: Make it easier for guests to put suggestions into the wiki. I'm too lazy to register. Regards, Axel. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
Thanks, Richard. Very helpful. Chas. richard.car...@me.com wrote: My personal view is that a worked example of a fully featured eCommerce type site would be most useful. Even something as simple as a cut down Amazon style store with inventory management would be a great start. That would be a useful foundation for the rest of Lift's features (add-ons such as online chat style help). I'm looking at technologies for rewriting a web site with a lot of dynamic content, currently written entirely in Java 1.4 and JSPs. Scala and Lift look promising, but the lack of documentation and non trivial worked examples mean that despite Lift's 1.0 status, I don't feel I could use it in its current form. Hope this is of some help, Regards Richard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
Thanks! Will do! Chas. Bryan. wrote: I'd like to help with the wiki as well. Let me know if there is anything in particular that you would like me to do. --Bryan On May 3, 9:46 am, David Pollak feeder.of.the.be...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 6:33 AM, Axel Rose axel.roesl...@googlemail.comwrote: Hello Charles, I know I'm a bit late for your request to consolidate the lift wiki. Anyway: It's really puzzling to me to get the version numbers right, when creating a new archetype with maven. The Maven mini guide athttp://wiki.liftweb.net/index.php/Maven_Mini_Guide is not so helpful. Perhaps it would be good to color the version numbers and clearly state what will be downloaded from maven and what to do if I wanted to use snapshots. Does pom.xml need to be changed? A howto for Google App Engine usage is missing. Here I'd need to use snapshots. Also: Make it easier for guests to put suggestions into the wiki. I'm too lazy to register. We've done just the opposite. You can only get an account if you make a request (Derek and I create the accounts). We've had far too much wiki vandalism and are clamping down by making sure everybody who has write-access to the wiki is willing to ask for an account. Regards, Axel. -- Lift, the simply functional web frameworkhttp://liftweb.net Beginning Scalahttp://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890 Follow me:http://twitter.com/dpp Git some:http://github.com/dpp --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
Formalities or content? http://wiki.liftweb.net/index.php/Maven_Mini_Guide must be improved. For people not accustomed to maven it is very hard to grasp the versions/release/snapshot/pom dependencies. Various articles use various version numbers when building examples. I, personally, got lost. How does a user learns from reading the wiki how to register? Regards Axel --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
Hello List! I might as well share my thoughts about docs. I think as with Scala and Lift you should try to beat the best that is out there. And from all the user made language/API/framework wikis I have seen the one from a now pretty unpopular game is by far the best: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Portal It is one page and you have _all_ the infos you need. Everything. Even in different languages. And _EVERY_ function as good exampleS to go along with it. That wiki is way better than any other IMNSHO. _Easily_ beats the ROR wiki. You just go to that page and boom you get everything there is to know PERIOD No unanswered questions. I hope the current API docs will be integrated into the wiki. Because those sure are not newbie friendly and lack explaination and examples. With similar docs lift will be the most popular web framework in no time, but I think with mandatory registration it will not happen. That does not scale and discourages people. At some point you need a real wiki (one that everyone can edit.) Cheers, - Tom - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
Tom, Thanks for this link! The Second Life wiki is very interesting, and makes it obvious that one can do a lot with MediaWiki. I'll definitely spend some time exploring it. Chas. Tom Arnold wrote: Hello List! I might as well share my thoughts about docs. I think as with Scala and Lift you should try to beat the best that is out there. And from all the user made language/API/framework wikis I have seen the one from a now pretty unpopular game is by far the best: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Portal It is one page and you have _all_ the infos you need. Everything. Even in different languages. And _EVERY_ function as good exampleS to go along with it. That wiki is way better than any other IMNSHO. _Easily_ beats the ROR wiki. You just go to that page and boom you get everything there is to know PERIOD No unanswered questions. I hope the current API docs will be integrated into the wiki. Because those sure are not newbie friendly and lack explaination and examples. With similar docs lift will be the most popular web framework in no time, but I think with mandatory registration it will not happen. That does not scale and discourages people. At some point you need a real wiki (one that everyone can edit.) Cheers, - Tom - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Re: Lift documentation -- Attention newcomers (and everyone else)!
James, This looks more like about $20, but I'm not complaining. Your thoughts mirror mine in many ways. #4 is a very good idea. Even just a list of what is needed. Folks could add to a documentation wishlist, and then anyone who thought he or she could tackle an item could just do it. I'm glad that people are finally responding to this thread. I was beginning to think that I was on my own... Chas. James Matlik wrote: Hello Charles, This is good news. I'm sorry I didn't see your initial email going out, but I would guess it is better late than never. I think the first thing that needs to be done is to clearly define what is to be documented in the wiki and where. Here is my 2 cents: 1. There should be a page linked to the wiki's main page providing marketing style information. This could be a kind of About Lift page on steroids. What makes Lift novel? What features does it provide that simplify the state of the art in web development? How easily can the technology be integrated with legacy deployments? What design goals does Lift strive for and why? Does Lift have a viable future? What is Lift's stance on KIR support? Once an official release is made public, will bug fixes be applied to that version going forward and for how long? How stable is the API? 2. A brief description of the Lift culture could be beneficial; a kind of welcome to the party, this is how we roll for the uninitiated (I'm still figuring it out). 3. Make a clearly defined section for people developing applications with Lift. Give a 100ft view of the code/compile/deploy/test development cycle, then delve into the tools that make this cycle simpler. Provide the basics on Maven, what it is, what it does for Lift, and the commands of interest for Lift development. Describe how Maven is not required for the Maven adverse, and provide instructions on how to proceed without Maven (maybe an opportunity for sbaz?). Up-to-date HowTo documents on standing up different editors (Nebeans, Eclipse, Idea, etc.) are important. How should Lift be deployed? What are the required dependencies? Is it reasonable to simply use Maven's jetty:run target for a production deployment? What are the common configuration settings for various servlet containers for development vs. production deployments. What architectures should be used for scaling out deployments for redundancy and performance (serialization, Terracotta, load balancing, etc.)? Development, deployment and KIR overview for those familiar with Rails but not with Java. 4. A documentation TODO list for people to contribute. 5. Are there any best practices? Some good topics could be I18N, how to avoid introducing security vulnerabilities like cross site scripting or SQL injection attacks, how best to leverage templates for CMS-like systems with very large numbers of unique pages vs. applications with a relatively short list of screens, security and performance tuning. 6. There needs to be a very clear division between documentation for public reference and works in progress/new feature collaboration that would only confuse people. 7. There is a lot of good example code in the lift demo app. It might be nice to provide some supplemental annotated documentation in the wiki (a lot of people don't turn to the code by default). This could be a kind of recipes for Lift section that could contain all kinds of examples including those in the demo app. As people contribute creative solutions or solutions to common problems, they could eventually be pulled into the demo app. I'm sure some of this already exists on the wiki, but it would nice if the navigation made it easier to find. As for registering with the wiki, could OpenID be supported for the wiki account? I'm seriously tired of creating new accounts all the time with the same unchanging handful of passwords that I regularly have to cycle through when accessing my account. I'd like to see OpenID implemented everywhere. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Charles F. Munat c...@munat.com mailto:c...@munat.com wrote: I am charged with coming up with a site map/information architecture for our hopefully-soon-to-be-updated wiki. What would most benefit you on a documentation wiki? What sorts of things are you having the most problems with? Please submit suggestions for a wiki outline, as well as any other ideas you have. For example, ideas on wiki structure are welcome. You could even suggest your own outline. Please participate! Yes, you, lurker! We want to know what you need. I'll collect all the ideas this weekend, consolidate them,
