[NMusers] Sparse (pediatric) and rich (adult) data

2008-05-28 Thread Chandrasekhar Udata
Hi, I am working on a pop PK model to estimate PK parameters in pediatric and adult patients. Pediatric study (n=20, age 6 yrs) has fewer samples (3) per subject whereas the adult study (n=50, median age 20 yrs) has 12 samples per subject. A two-compartment model best describes the data for

Re: [NMusers] Sparse (pediatric) and rich (adult) data

2008-05-28 Thread Leonid Gibiansky
Chandra, Pediatric data alone may not be able to support (with 3 samples per patient) a two compartment model. So combined adult/pediatric model is more appropriate. You may also want to scale peripheral compartment parameters (Q as CL, V2 as V, K12and K21 as CL/V ~ 1/WT^0.25). Remaining

Re: [NMusers] Sparse (pediatric) and rich (adult) data

2008-05-28 Thread Nick Holford
Chandra, With such a small sample its hard to learn much about differences between adults and children. Your principled approach using allometric scaling is a reasonable way to bridge the gap in recognizing that adults and children are all the same species (see reference below). Children

Re: [NMusers] Sparse (pediatric) and rich (adult) data

2008-05-28 Thread Chandrasekhar Udata
Thank you Nick and Leonid for your comments. Follow-up question: I do understand that 3 samples per subject may not support 4 parameters model. However, historically, the compound showed bi-phasic characteristics (in adults) and I do like to use the same model in pediatrics. Also, the model

RE: [NMusers] Sparse (pediatric) and rich (adult) data

2008-05-28 Thread Stephen Duffull
Chandra, Nick et al It is worth noting that while three samples won't support a 4 parameter model if all patients contribute these samples at exactly the same time (i.e. the patients are exchangeable from a design perspective) this is not necessarily the case if the design is optimized to learn

Re: [NMusers] Sparse (pediatric) and rich (adult) data

2008-05-28 Thread Leonid Gibiansky
Steve, I hope that you do not dispute that in this particular case you need to use adult data (50 full profiles) rather than discard them and use only kids data (3 sample per subject, 20 subjects)? While optimal design can be used to extract more information from the same number of samples,

RE: [NMusers] Sparse (pediatric) and rich (adult) data

2008-05-28 Thread Stephen Duffull
Leonid I hope that you do not dispute that in this particular case you need to use adult data (50 full profiles) rather than discard them and use only kids data (3 sample per subject, 20 subjects)? I definitely do not dispute the need to have both adult and paediatric data in the

RE: [NMusers] Sparse (pediatric) and rich (adult) data

2008-05-28 Thread Stephen Duffull
Leonid The original question was whether it is beneficial to add adult data to the pediatric (in the specific case under study). Your previous e-mail could be interpreted as the suggestion that one can estimate model parameters with the pediatric data alone if the pediatric study design

Re: [NMusers] Sparse (pediatric) and rich (adult) data

2008-05-28 Thread Leonid Gibiansky
Steve, The original question was whether it is beneficial to add adult data to the pediatric (in the specific case under study). Your previous e-mail could be interpreted as the suggestion that one can estimate model parameters with the pediatric data alone if the pediatric study design is