I would like to point out some things for those who are willing
to listen:
1) Mark has not stated that the window controls decision has been
finalized. He said that he supported the interface team's decision to
do it this way for the beta. I think we do Ubuntu and the Canonical
team great
Does anyone know if this bug might be related to maximus failing to hide
the window decorations? I am currently running ubuntu (not the netbook
remix) with maximus and window-picker to maximize on desktop real
estate.
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[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
John Lewis wrote on 2010-03-19:
Basically when everything has to be decided
by committee/consensus view it a) slows the
decision making process down a lot and
b) some pretty silly decisions get made in the
interests of trying to keep everyone happy.
Rafael Gattringer wrote on 2010-03-20:
Honestly people. Really? This whole thread has devolved into watching a
flock of birds peck at one another. Trying to belabor this process to
death by having a running popularity contest of who likes what where
won't convince anybody of anything. I would be willing to go out on a
limb and
To whom it might concern:
- The proposed changes should not happen suddenly on a LTS.
- Things should happen for a reason: Do you have a way to show us where this is
leading to? Do you have factual data that supports that this is the best
solution?.
- Our changes and customization should not be
I honestly can't believe what I read here.
Mark's response to fewt were clear and very truthful. If everyone out
there got to make design decisions for ubuntu, it would ship by default
with hundreds of xp, vista + osx clone themes and thousands of tasteless
bikini wallpapers with ubuntu tagged
Optimus 55, if you don't like the ability to customize your desktop or
implement alternative themes, there are a number of proprietary
operating systems that already accommodate you. As for Ubuntu, one of
the really neat things is that it does have a number of themes that ship
with it as well as
Personally, at the time of writing this, I do not like this change as it
seems to be more a change for changes sake in an effort to simply be
different. There seems to have been an element of groupthink in the
design and decision process. This is a pity because for the most part,
despite a few
I'm against making that change, at least now, without having them a few
months in beta testing for find out all the regression bugs that it
generates and how the people feel about it.
Maybe since the first 10.10 alpha?
The fact that this is an LTS cuts both ways. If I'm confident that
10.10,
Moved them back to the right side from the left (wrong side for me)
by doing this thanks to iRock:
gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string
menu:minimize,maximize,close
Among other things, with them on the Beta default left, I frequently
lose a line on the 1024x768
@Mark Appier,
I couldn't agree with you more. The reason there are so many comments is
because people do feel passionate about Ubuntu, which implies they are doing
something very right. I love customizing my desktop and understand that if i
want to change something, I can.
It doesn't matter if
Putting the buttons on the left side is very functional. Make a test and
you'll notice that whenever you open the window, the pointer is always
closer to the left than the right side of the window, meaning less
pointer movements over the desktop.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the
Fine add it as an option to put it on the left, but leave it on the
right for default as the little gain (which is very debatable) does not
to weigh the outrage from users. Look at what yo have from alpha testers
which are people who expect change and want to try something different.
Imagine what
@Mark Shuttleworth (if you still check this)
Given the amount of disappointment, I (as well as the design team) would listen
to what people are saying, but of course, you said it wasn't reasonable to do
so for the future (for new features). Then at least give our thoughts *some*
consideration.
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:55 +, j_baer bae...@gmail.com wrote:
My belief is this decision was not made by the flip of a coin, the toss
of a dart, or the personal preference of any single individual. I
believe the concept was discussed, debated, and evaluated as to adding
value to Ubuntu as
I would of expected a user survey to go out, or something along those
lines to get an accurate, and full understanding of what USERS would
feel best with. After all, ubuntu is an OS that is built around open and
free ideals. Not letting everyone, or at least OPENLY DISCUSS CHANGE, is
a breach of
This has probably been mentioned many times before, however. The way I
look at it, I don't mind them on the left side. What I have a problem
with, is that they just threw the buttons on the left side, and left it
in the same order as they were on the right, meaning the close button is
on the
Moving the buttons left is a *big* step ahead. User look from the top-left to
bottom-right. Currently I am a KDE-user (Kubuntu) but will switch to GNOME
with lucid. Aligning the title left is also a very good idea. I never liked
centered titles.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the
very bad decision
like to have the window controls on the right
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is
For me it makes no big difference, left or right, if the developers want
it this way, let it be. I left Windows almost 10 years ago, and I've
changed my habits several times, this is certainly not going to be the
last or the biggest.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window
I would have a more constructive idea that respects the ideas of
canonical and the ideas of some users of the community.
should also be easy to implement.
Bug #542772
2 click and we are all happy.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
I too am strongly opposed to this change. I just hope it does not catch
on in Kubuntu, or Linux Mint.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a
I think it's amazing how Ubuntu manages to screw up every major version
with some serious deal-breaker. 9.10 broke my wireless and graphics
drivers (that worked perfectly in 9.04), and asked me for a password
every minute. I never got to using it. And now 10.04 comes along with
ridiculous purple
Looking back at this thread, the issue seems completely misunderstood by
Ubuntu representatives.
Maybe to understand the debate, it should be made clear that this is the
straw that broke the camel's back!
Someone hereupper complain about regressions every 6 months... the most
annoying and not
OK, just a short comment:
I like change and I think Ubuntu should be able to change things to be better
than their competition.
But I also use Chrome, Kubuntu and Windows and this is really hard to get used
to (I tried for weeks now).
IMO it is better to change these things with upstream in
I am somewhat disappointed that none of the community contributors as so
far is aware of the real intentions of this issue. Moving the buttons to
the left is not a change for the sake of change as someone earlier
supposed.
No, they are keen enough at Canonical's and have weighted this
carefully.
My mouse cursor usually hovers around the right side
of windows because the vertical scroll bars are on the
right. Also, since I read left-to-right, it seems easier to
interact with windows at the right side.
That's a very good point.
There's no sense moving the min/max/close buttons to the
On 19/03/10 10:53, Mr. X wrote:
My mouse cursor usually hovers around the right side
of windows because the vertical scroll bars are on the
right. Also, since I read left-to-right, it seems easier to
interact with windows at the right side.
That's a very good point.
There's no sense
No, notifications were not the primary driver.
Why not simply say that you cannot tell us the reason? :)
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you
** Description changed:
Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also
re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right
side (menu - title - minimize, maximize close).
Workaround
To revert to old layout, enter in terminal:
$
@Mark
Scrollbars are still very useful even with a mousewheel, when navigating
in a large document for example by either scrolling the bar or middle
clicking, please don't kill them at least *before* something as useful
is implemented :)
Furthermore, a lot of users (at least around me) don't
Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
Our design roadmap calls for us to reduce the visibility of
scrollbars, and emphasise:
- touch scrolling
- scrollwheels
If you are actually considering touch scrolling, than you should also
consider that touch screens are much less precise than mouse pointers:
Shouldn't this bug, by now, be assigned to someone on the desktop
experience team? And can anyone confirm when a decision will be made
regarding this?
And still no comments from anyone who was responsible for this? Other,
obviously, Mark himself. Or any rebuttal to comments made in post 71?
Forgive me if I'm confusing this bug with the one about moving buttons
back to the right side of the window, but I actually like this order:
gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string
minimize,maximize:close
It seems to me that there is some argument is around having
I totally agree with all the people that don't want such a big change in an LTS.
As Mark said: He wants to free space for something NEW, but people want to
work with an LTS for several years and don't want to be bothered by a design
based on an in between conception.
If you're sure you want to
Our design roadmap calls for us to reduce the visibility of scrollbars,
and emphasise:
- touch scrolling
- scrollwheels
Most people don't scroll with the scrollbar any more. The use the
scrollbar to gauge how much fo the document am I seeing.
Hum... I think the very long list of concerns in
According to comment #208, if we are going to change button position and order,
this is the best:
(left:) maximize, (right:) restore, minimize, close.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You
I hear alway touchscreens as argument. But it's a funny argument in my
eyes. The pick-up'ed Icons on the panel, switch off - button on the
panel, control-buttons (right or left), hide windows-applet, ... all is
too small for that feature. Honestly it needs a different Desktop-
Interface like the
My opinion...
Love em on the left!!
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu.
--
My 2 cents worth:-
1. From a purely productive point of view, having the minimize, maximize
and close buttons near the menus saves having to move the mouse pointer
to the opposite side of the screen under certain circumstances.
Personally I would rather waste untold seconds of my life enjoying a
I think most people are right handed and now their way (with the mouse) is
greater than before.
Please let the icons on the right side of the bar. Users who come from another
OS are confused and so they
search for an alternative OS. Stop this wired things.!!
--
[light-theme] please revert the
ok. guys.. I didn't read all the posts because the bickering started to
make my head hurt. I am as passionate about Ubuntu as most of the people
that posted here. I'd show you the tattoo but it's in a private place.
:) Seriously, the passion of this argument is good but not directed in
the right
Window-Buttons-Editor or *mwbuttons* (Metacity Window Buttons}, as the
original script
was called, (c) 2010 Pablo Seminario pab...@gmail.com.
Is a simple GUI script to place the buttons on the Titlebar in any order,
and right or left.
Create a link, put it in the menu, desktop, menubar, etc.-
Amazing, what a fuss just because it was decided to move some buttons to
a different side
This is a setting and not a hard coded feature... it can be changed by the user.
Let me guess all here complaining still have the default wallpaper, theme,
login splash, ... you never changed nothing
from
scholli:
I make no claim that this particular issue is as important as the
emotion displayed in the discourse would suggest.
It's like when I have a big argument with my wife over something small.
Once the emotions are spent and we rationally talk through why the out-
of-proportion argument
It is my opinion as well that the button should be in the right edge,
because this is where ALL users are going to look for it.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug
I would just like to add that this is very hard to trackpad users.
Pushing the mouse to the right takes longer and is harder to do. Pulling
your finger is much easier.
If I had to test a location for the buttons I would use the center.
Hopefully you consider laptop users in the decision.
--
Fine, move the button thingies to the left. Whatever. But the least you
could do is give the users the ability to move it back using the gui, by
putting something in the preferences appearance config menu, so they
don't have to mess with gconfig to get the buttons to where they are
consistent. Is
I agree with Luiz Felipe Talvik.
Changing it is not only completely pointless but it is just annoying the
users and it is completely inconsistent with every previous version of
ubuntu and every other distro (for no reason)
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
I think the real problem here isn't whether the controls are on the left
or on the right. If users don't like something, they will find a way to
change it, and share those changes with other like minded users. The
real issue seems to be about whether or not the novice user will be able
to make
I did not read all the comments here, but some of them are really
annoying and stupid. i got used to the new position and now i like it.
The only thing which confuses me is the shutdown button still being on
the right.
All these people here complaining about the issue with google chrome
having
It's very disappointing to know that people don't like to try anything
new, they always like to be happy whit whatever going on and usual,
Lucid tried somthing new this time and all of you are disagreeing with
it :(
Very bad! i like th new feature and it's good! I strongly contrary to
this bug!
On 19/03/10 18:52, Atel Apsfej wrote:
Contrast how the Canonical design team works with how the recent Gnome
hackfest participants communicated what was going on at the event.
http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/London2010
Out of all the listed participants on that page with blogs... how
From a support standpoint this is a nightmare.
I can see that if this was a smaller project, it wouldn't create many
waves. But come on, Ubuntu is #1. I'm moving to Lucid from Hardy because
of LTS. I run LTSP servers for thousands of students and teachers. They
are ALL going to complain to me. As
Mark:
I did not make any assumptions about intent or motivations on the behalf
of anyone at Canonical.
What I am saying is that maybe...just maybe the Canonical design team
isn't communicating enough about intent and motivation so that the
external community can see individual changes in context
Already now a large number of people are upset by the changed placement
of the window controls. There's still time to fix it before the release
though. Just admit people don't like the change and revert it! Put up a
poll if you don't believe it. Releasing this change would have a major
negative
@Mark Shuttleworth: You said in #248,
Most people don't scroll with the scrollbar any more. The use the
scrollbar to gauge how much fo the document am I seeing.
Can you site any references to this? Scrolling through this bug report,
for instance, would take a LONG time with a mouse wheel.
--
Jordan:
I don't think you can hold up webpages this long as typical or even moderately
common usage.
Having to scroll all the way to the bottom to see newest comments and to get to
the Add comment box in Launchpad is more indicative of a design failure of
the launchpad web interface itself
@Atel, Yes, the web is broken. Ubuntu is changing it's design, and the
web is not compatible with it. The web must change.
Seriously?
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this
@Atel I ALWAYS use the scrollbar to scroll, and I know more people who
does.
I just hope this possible change isn't made the same way that the
buttons', and some usability testing is done before doing changes that
may seriously affect lots of people like me.
Not to talk about having to redesign
It appears there are two items causing concern with this team.
The first – the window control buttons are now located in the upper
left hand quadrant of the window frame.
The second - the order of the buttons has changed.
There is plenty of data to support locating the buttons in the upper
Respectfully I want to say that moving the buttons to the left and
changing buttons position is a very bad idea, if you want to do that
create a new theme and don't make it the default for the minority that
wants that.
Sure, I'll vote with my feet too if you ship like that because you are
not
Luckily I know understand that I can configure the buttons with
gconftool. My anger is finally gone. After many times scanning the
gconftool shell command I actually didn't understand the meaning of :.
The good outcome of this bug is that I have my minimize and close button
back on the right.
As far as I know, there have been no papers or research published on
window button placement, or the advantages/disadvantages of any of the
suggested positions and combinations.
What we do know already is that it appears that MS arbitrarily chose the
top-right position, and Apple chose the left
Hello,
i hope this was not already mentioned (i can't read 283 comments now) but when
you use gnome-shell the buttons are very near to the activity button.
sometimes i open the overlay mode when i want to use the buttons.
This can suck ;-)
on the other side when i don't use gnome-shell i prefer
# 281:
Really the minority? I had understand in a post before that 99.9% are
happy with it and 0.1% unhappy... they come here in search of shout loud
somewhere! and let a comment. :-) ... Well, maybe I am only saturated a
little bit with the 280 comments: yes, not, anger, off-topic, chantage,
I wish Linux proponents would decide whether you want people to switch
to Linux from Windows or OS X, or not. I'm just trying Ubuntu again
(Karmic) after last trying it (I think Dapper Drake was the last version
I'd tried previously). It has improved tremendously since then but now
I read this
@Fox
I agree entirely. If Ubuntu fails, this is why. Look no further. Look at
how many people hate this, and yet we have the developers saying that
the majority opinion of the people that use the thing daily is stupid
and that the non-standard behavior won't change.
It's not a meritocracy when
Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
No. This is not a democracy. Good feedback, good data, are welcome. But
we are not voting on design decisions.
Mark,
I completely understand and agree with your position -- you are the
benevolent dictator for life, and Ubuntu is not a democracy.
HOWEVER, I also
Hi Mark , let me make a little contribution a this controversy , a o.s. , this
one o anyone should be easy to use to the novice , they should do it so that it
turns out to be as easy as possible to which are not geeks , the geek o
experienced linux user can tune the desk by himself , but a
Still no comments from the design team at all? Compiz, Firefox,, gnome-
appearance, gnome-shell, etc that will need to be remodelled?
What about the users who don't like the buttons on the left and swap it
to the right - will they therefore forgo the pleasures of Cool New Stuff
when 10.10 comes
@Mark
Mr.Shuttleworth, you clearly are a more successful person than I am, and I
respect your opinions to a certain degree.
I only want this change to be reverted since I work with regular end-users
without computer knowledge and I am sure they will react to this change in a
negative way.
You
Adam Williamson wrote:
You've said a couple of times that the idea is to free up the right hand
corner
for Other Stuff You Will Put There Later, which is a valid idea. What I don't
get,
though, is why you think it makes sense to do the freeing-up before you've got
around to inventing the
Scaine:
The problem here is that people are talking past each other. What's
primarily missing is a definition and explanation of the data and data
collection methodology that Shuttleworth and the rest of the design team
are interested in seeing collected and will respect as being good enough
to
gnome-shell, Compiz, Firefox,, gnome-appearance, etc that will need
to be remodelled?
To add to the list , webpages .[chat tabs, mail tabs , info bars , in-
page popups, modal popups ] All the major sites have close buttons for
these on the top right. [I'm not even sure if there is a site which
http://blog.internetnews.com/apatrizio/do-not-want-dog.jpg
I've read through most of the comments and justification but I still think this
change is MAJOR FAIL. Please revert.
I've been working very, very hard to fix Bug #1 and this sort of change is
probably the most destructive thing you
@ Atel Apsfej:
+1
But publish ideas and inventions soon in form of mock-up's can be copied
by the concurrence and the Joker-Card is played before it could dig
hurtful. Better believe to Shuttleworth and let him play the poker-game
without rush him show his cards. I believe in his abilities, you
Can people please stop complaining about the window controls being on
the left side? Windows has them on the right side, but it’s completely
illogical to have them on the right side. The GUI of Windows is
completely illogical and causes it’s users to get RSI, because of all
the mouse movement when
sarcasm
disclaimerthis tag may include content you can't see the funny side
of/disclaimer
workaroundplease read the whole post and go have a walk before replying in
anger/workaround
Oh dear! A pre-release version of the next Ubuntu includes a massive
change to an essential element of user
OK. Fair warning, this is long as hell, but there were some ideological
differences that I felt needed to be addressed. This is a reply to Mark
which is probably too way long to justify his reading it, but I'm
posting it anyway.
We all make Ubuntu, but we do not all make all of it. In other
Scholli:
Do I believe Shuttleworth is infallible? No. I believe the previous
mistakes made with nautilus spatial are proof enough of that. When he
mistake a mistake in judgement...who's he accountable to for that if not
the entire Ubuntu community? Who certified him an expert designer? He
may be
El vie, 19-03-2010 a las 00:18 +, personman escribió:
OK. Fair warning, this is long as hell, but there were some ideological
differences that I felt needed to be addressed. This is a reply to Mark
which is probably too way long to justify his reading it, but I'm
posting it anyway.
We
Bruno Girin wrote:
sarcasm
disclaimerthis tag may include content you can't see the funny side
of/disclaimer
workaroundplease read the whole post and go have a walk before replying in
anger/workaround
Oh dear! A pre-release version of the next Ubuntu includes a massive
change to an
@Mark Shuttleworth
There's a job waiting for you at a tabloid, if that's how you treat
commentary. Isolating snippets and using them out of context is just rude.
So, instead of answering him, you criticize him of taking quotes out of
context when I looked and saw that, amazingly, he didn't.
On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 00:41 +, Dave Stroud wrote:
Bruno Girin wrote:
sarcasm
disclaimerthis tag may include content you can't see the funny side
of/disclaimer
workaroundplease read the whole post and go have a walk before replying
in anger/workaround
Oh dear! A pre-release
@ Atel Apsfej:
Wow. I am baffled about your ability to write and think. Here are writing many
genius, but not all here have your ability to say it clear, with good arguments
(points) and the cruel reality without being offensive, arrogant or simply
unrespectful. I saw you are member here since
im going to fedora if the buttons stay
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu.
--
Pat, the buttons don't have to stay--you may put them wherever you would
like. Customization is one of the really great things I like about
Ubuntu and other linux distributions. My desktop barely resembles the
default. Because I have a mix of Ubuntu releases and Debian as well as
Windows that
My mouse cursor usually hovers around the right side of windows because
the vertical scroll bars are on the right. Also, since I read left-to-
right, it seems easier to interact with windows at the right side.
I usually close, minimize, or maximize windows and work with menus using
the keyboard,
But on a more serious note, people have looked to the top-right corner
for window controls since Windows 3.1 atleast. Unless he is reserving
the top right corner for some magical blow-job button, I think he is
going in the wrong direction.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window
XDD I'm really impressed how this decision has made so many noise,
they're are just buttons!! and can be changed!! so, where's the problem?
that everybody is used to the buttons to the right?, well, everybody is
used to other OS too
1. I agree in putting buttons to left, they're better when
@aysiu
The problem with your Forums post is that it says this is what really
happened and is, in fact, quite incorrect.
Some members of the design team asked that the window controls be
grouped on the left, and presented the visualisation. So it wasn't that
I prefer it that way. I didn't like it
On 17/03/10 22:34, fewt wrote:
you don't get to second-guess their decisions
You don't get to see a lot of what they see unless you're on that team.
being an open community is not the same as saying everybody has a say in
everything.
There aren't any good reasons for that
we are not voting
I suggest one simple thing.
Move to another distribution if you don't like Mark/Canonnical's philosophy
GNU/Linux world is big enough to find the distribution that fit your needs.
Personally i don't find polite the way someone treated Mark (and at the same
time Mark treated the community) but i
I'd like to add just a simple thing:
it's not easy to make every user happy...
... yes but it seems that nobody's happy.. :-D
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
menu:minimize,maximize,close
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug
Hi Mark. I didn't take anything out of context, those were your words,
I just put quotes around them to emphasize how ridiculous they were. If
that's a problem maybe you shouldn't have said them.
As for personally attacking me, well I guess when you cannot win an
argument on merit, go for the
Mark, I want to ask you: What is you vision about GnomeShell? It fit's
with what you are planing? Can we see blueprints of you plans?
At first I disliked the change, now I don't care. But I must say that I
hate half baked solutions... like the new GDM (you must admit it, the
default theme is
Yes, Mark: flamewars aside, please ensure buttons on the left are not
turning into a nightmare when GNOME Shell is used. I can confirm that
reaching e.g. the icon button in the left corner of a maximized window
is very likely to lead you to hit the hot corner, especially on
touchpads - and even
Mark Shuttleworth:
However, it does line things up nicely for work I would like us to do in
future. And the major argument against it appears solely to be we're used to
it here, which is important, but not overriding.
There are many places in applications, like tabs and panels, where close
Maybe Shuttleworth should let his Communitizer handle this, if he can't
keep his cool among the very community he claims this purple OS is
about? Very unbecoming to lose your temper like that. Even for a
dictator.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
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