Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I would like to point out some things for those who are willing to listen: 1) Mark has not stated that the window controls decision has been finalized. He said that he supported the interface team's decision to do it this way for the beta. I think we do Ubuntu and the Canonical team great disservice if we believe they won't consider community input. I work in a corporate environment, and one of the most precious things in that setting is the ability to make decisions. What happens to the interface team if Mark turns around and says, ZOMG! The community is ON FIRE! Revert the window controls change NOW! Not only does that undermine the interface team, it undermines every other team in Ubuntu, because it sets a precedent that says that Mark will override anyone, at any time. While I'm skeptical about this particular change, I give Mark a lot of credit for backing the people he has hired to make these decisions. I have trust that they will ultimately do the right thing. 2) It's fairly straightforward to work around, should the final decision be to leave controls on the left for the release of 10.04. I agree with those who are asking for a radio button or other easy config dialog to choose which side to use. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Does anyone know if this bug might be related to maximus failing to hide the window decorations? I am currently running ubuntu (not the netbook remix) with maximus and window-picker to maximize on desktop real estate. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
John Lewis wrote on 2010-03-19: Basically when everything has to be decided by committee/consensus view it a) slows the decision making process down a lot and b) some pretty silly decisions get made in the interests of trying to keep everyone happy. Rafael Gattringer wrote on 2010-03-20: Regarding the decision making process I think it is good that Mark backs the decision of the design group. That gives the groups security that their decisions are respected. I agree with the posters above. Even under pressure, Mark shows that is a true leader. However, I still hope he will discuss the issue with the design team and revert the change. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Honestly people. Really? This whole thread has devolved into watching a flock of birds peck at one another. Trying to belabor this process to death by having a running popularity contest of who likes what where won't convince anybody of anything. I would be willing to go out on a limb and suggest that everyone who has posted to this tread thinks the same thing now as before they posted. I in fact have been employed within the field of human computer interaction. This type of change just really isn't that significant. It is annoying to relearn, but so is everything else ever so subtly different between any two systems. Haven't you ever sat down at a friends computer and felt the psychological discomfort that comes from having different programs installed, short-cuts in different locations, and configuration settings slightly different? My hat's off to the whole Ubuntu community for building a hell of a system. My hat is off, and will remain so, to Mark S. for his generosity in funding Canonical and the Ubuntu community with his personal resources, including his time and his wealth. Show some gratitude and stop acting like my six year old. Mark and the design team are making a tough call. That's what they do. That's why they are in the positions they inhabit. Even wolves and lions recognize that any group needs leaders. In the end, a committee creates excellent dialogue, but the chairperson has to make the decisions and live with the results. My two cents suggest that the current position of the close button on the right side of the three windowing buttons 'feels' wrong. The buttons were kept in the same order as on the right, but simply moved to the left. Understanding the danger of using the same layout as Mac OS X, and the comments of copying and emulation that will undoubtably ensue, the close button seems to belong in the corner. However, its not my call. I love enough about Ubuntu not to get in a huff over one issue. If a persons commitment to something can't even weather one issue failing to meet expectations, then their commitment was zero anyway. Thank you again to everybody who has worked so hard to make Lucid such a well developed system, especially those whose contributions have spanned not only this release, but all those that came before - those long hours of incremental improvement have made this a highly anticipated release in my Free Software experience. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
To whom it might concern: - The proposed changes should not happen suddenly on a LTS. - Things should happen for a reason: Do you have a way to show us where this is leading to? Do you have factual data that supports that this is the best solution?. - Our changes and customization should not be written over. It's understandable that a new installation will come with new features and different options than before. It's not unreasonable to ask that, when upgrading the distro, changes are not overwritten, so our options get respected. - A way to opt out some of the proposed features would be also great to have. While this community is not a democracy, one would expect real respect and consideration from whomever has the steering wheel. So, basically, what many us, the community, are doing here is affirming their right to disagree with you, the company. Yes, we can disagree with your decisions, that's what ultimately Linux is all about; we customize our desktops to suit our needs. What we need from you is respect, so that your decisions don't affect ours and our productivity overall. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I honestly can't believe what I read here. Mark's response to fewt were clear and very truthful. If everyone out there got to make design decisions for ubuntu, it would ship by default with hundreds of xp, vista + osx clone themes and thousands of tasteless bikini wallpapers with ubuntu tagged on. This thread almost makes me want to stop using ubuntu not because of the window borders, but I don't want to be associated in any way with the kind of people I see here, crying and complaining. Completely disgusting. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Optimus 55, if you don't like the ability to customize your desktop or implement alternative themes, there are a number of proprietary operating systems that already accommodate you. As for Ubuntu, one of the really neat things is that it does have a number of themes that ship with it as well as several hundred if not thousand variations and alternatives that are desktop ready on art.gnome.org. To me, this is a plus, not a minus. Regarding the community, the reason there are so many comments is because there are a lot of people that care about Ubuntu. If a similar change were made on one of the less popular distributions, hardly anyone would notice. People are here that want to see it succeed! -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Personally, at the time of writing this, I do not like this change as it seems to be more a change for changes sake in an effort to simply be different. There seems to have been an element of groupthink in the design and decision process. This is a pity because for the most part, despite a few edge cases here and there, I actually quite like the look of the new Lucid themes. The top-left of the window is now overloaded and looks cluttered with the window buttons, window title, application menus, and icon bars. Even more so when the window is maximised and you have the Gnome Panel and Gnome Menu Bar in the top-left as well. The old Window layout was more balanced with the actual application icon, window title, and window buttons spaced across the top of the window. (I have not tried this with Gnome Shell yet, but I can foresee problems unintentionally entering the Activities Overview. And just to add to the confusion when using the Activities Overview a close button appears on the top-right of the window under the mouse.) Even after several days usage I am struggling to over come my muscle memory. I still instinctively move the mouse to the upper-right to maximise, minimise, and close my windows. When I then look at the top- right of the window to actually select the window button I want I have found myself momentarily confused (Hey, where are the window buttons?) before correcting myself (Hey, they are on the left now, remember.). I still get caught out using the maximise and minimise buttons. Perhaps this is being made more difficult because I am also using other computers running Windows and Karmic so the existing muscle memory is being re-enforced using these. Whatever the reason, I am finding it frustrating and it makes the time to perform the intended action longer. I am sure there are usability and GUI experts out there that would have a field day explaining why this is the case. Thankfully, unlike some other desktop environments, with Ubuntu I can change the theme and window button positions if I decide this change is not for me in the long-term. I guess time will tell. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I'm against making that change, at least now, without having them a few months in beta testing for find out all the regression bugs that it generates and how the people feel about it. Maybe since the first 10.10 alpha? The fact that this is an LTS cuts both ways. If I'm confident that 10.10, 11.04 and future releases will have the controls on the left, it makes even more sense to do it now (because the LTS will then not look dated compared to newer releases). As a precedent, we shipped Firefox 3.0*beta* for 8.04 LTS, which caused an uproar but was the right decision given that 2.0 was nearing its end of life at the time. I don't think that the FF 3 situation is the same, you knew that a few months later everything was going to be OK. Now you will have a half backed solution that will still around for 2 years. I think that you can always give the 10.4 users the option to move the buttons to the left in 6 months in an update if all those experiments work out. Our design roadmap calls for us to reduce the visibility of scrollbars, and emphasise: - touch scrolling - scrollwheels Most people don't scroll with the scrollbar any more. The use the scrollbar to gauge how much fo the document am I seeing. Please don't get rid of it, I don't think that the mouse is going away any time soon, specially in the enterprise and the scroll bar is the best way to go directly to a specific point in a large document. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Moved them back to the right side from the left (wrong side for me) by doing this thanks to iRock: gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string menu:minimize,maximize,close Among other things, with them on the Beta default left, I frequently lose a line on the 1024x768 laptop display. I need every line I can get. Jerry -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@Mark Appier, I couldn't agree with you more. The reason there are so many comments is because people do feel passionate about Ubuntu, which implies they are doing something very right. I love customizing my desktop and understand that if i want to change something, I can. It doesn't matter if I like the button placement by default or not. I have the option to change it. My problem is with people who are seriously offended because ubuntu has made a design change which they (ubuntu) believe will help them advance linux desktop usability and differentiate the product from dozens of other run of the mill distros. You need to understand. Ubuntu has done leaps and bounds for the usability image of linux based OSes. They got to where they are by doing what they were doing all along. Why now should the process change? People shouldn't feel a god-given sense of entitlement to control the development decisions. The code is open, you can make your own changes to the interface, you can even contribute ideas and suggestions. It's fine if people disagree, but disagree respectfully. Offer a ppa or workaround option. Show something quantifiable. I feel glad knowing that there are so many passionate open source users. Just do it logically and with taste is my advice. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Putting the buttons on the left side is very functional. Make a test and you'll notice that whenever you open the window, the pointer is always closer to the left than the right side of the window, meaning less pointer movements over the desktop. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Fine add it as an option to put it on the left, but leave it on the right for default as the little gain (which is very debatable) does not to weigh the outrage from users. Look at what yo have from alpha testers which are people who expect change and want to try something different. Imagine what will happen when the other (less tolerable) 99% realise, and then find out how you completely ignore the testers input (in this case). And if you are stuck on the idea then add it as an option on the live cd so the user can choose upon installation. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@Mark Shuttleworth (if you still check this) Given the amount of disappointment, I (as well as the design team) would listen to what people are saying, but of course, you said it wasn't reasonable to do so for the future (for new features). Then at least give our thoughts *some* consideration. Since the decision is to put the buttons on the left now, the only logical, and understandable action to take would be to completely mirror the original layout onto the left. Therefore making the order, Close - maximize - minimize. Note that this still isn't the same as OSX. (OSX- Close, Minimize, Maximize) Now, I can see you give the counterpoint that it's in the same order on the left as it is on the right. Sure it's a valid point, but the brain still tends to want to click the [left] corner to close, because it used to be in a corner originally. I still don't understand what is holding us back from keeping the button layout on the left, but in a different order. If you could explain, it would be great, so people, like me, will stop worrying and trying to give counterpoints in an attempt to persuade somebody, that might, or might not be listening. (It's like firing a gun a night) There should not be any reason to not make a huge change, slightly less easier to adapt to. Thanks, and I hope you and the design team will still consider some sort of change to the order.. of course, if you had the time to read this. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:55 +, j_baer bae...@gmail.com wrote: My belief is this decision was not made by the flip of a coin, the toss of a dart, or the personal preference of any single individual. I believe the concept was discussed, debated, and evaluated as to adding value to Ubuntu as it exists today and what it will become tomorrow. As to the order of the buttons, the same arguments apply. My suggestion is let’s not be too quick to judge and give it a try. I see a work-a-around is already in place for those who feel strongly the placement is incorrect. I have to politely take issue with this give it a try attitude. Firstly I feel underestimated, do you really think I don't know what I want? that *we, linux users* don't know what I want? Simply choosing linux already implies having strong opinions about computers. Secondly, I have business to do, and a life, enough free software is of alpha and beta quality for me to be enrolled into a usability study to justify someone's pet windows configuration I never asked for. Thirdly, this is a LTS, do you want to make an experimental release out of a LTS? Making it opt-in is the best option. Fourthly, if the polls reflect the preferences of the users (when in reality polls are visited by early adopter types) I predict most users will simply google for ubuntu fix window buttons where they will find this one liner in the forums $ gconftool --type string --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout menu:minimize,maximize,close And go about their business as usual. Certainly this change won't break ubuntu (except for a few hundred kids who will as a result of this hate ubuntu as soon as their school forces them to use it) it will only make it slightly more annoying, this will simply be added to the list of stuff we have to do every time we upgrade like installing codecs and such. The tragedy is, the ubuntu packers will go around thinking they made everybody happy *while* proving everybody wrong! haha! But no, listen to the polls, the polls are the answer. Some else said that this is not an issue people over which choose their distro. It's true,probably, ubuntu won't loose much users from this change, certainly, it won't gain any. And the people who don't and won't care will still not care. so what do the people that do care think? Is their opinion that unimportant? -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software or over the web -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I would of expected a user survey to go out, or something along those lines to get an accurate, and full understanding of what USERS would feel best with. After all, ubuntu is an OS that is built around open and free ideals. Not letting everyone, or at least OPENLY DISCUSS CHANGE, is a breach of its own beliefs and mission Seeing as that changing the side of the window buttons is a pretty big UI change, many users feel that they aren't getting a say in the changes that they dislike, and is why there are a lot of negative thoughts, with negative attitudes. But, however, if it is put into perspective, it is reasonable to be acting in such a way. For years, ubuntu has had its window buttons on the same side, in the same order. With the new changes the buttons are now on the left, but not only that, they are in a different order. I strongly believe that this completely ruins the consistency factor of ubuntu. And on the other side, seeing as this is it's 10th release, and a LTS, it is also reasonable that there is going to be some change. However, the main problem is that every, every, every popular OS has the close button in a corner, and never towards the center...this is probably the greatest concern of all the people who are against the change, and NOT the side of the buttons. Whats done is done, unless the UI Freeze is lenient. But for NEXT TIME, Canonical should put extreme care in making sure users are satisfied. (Surveys, surveys, surveys, heck, even Google is doing it!) -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
This has probably been mentioned many times before, however. The way I look at it, I don't mind them on the left side. What I have a problem with, is that they just threw the buttons on the left side, and left it in the same order as they were on the right, meaning the close button is on the inside, and the minimize button is on the corner, which makes things really really awkward. I've used them on the left many times before, however, when I always put them on the left I always put the close button in the corner, and the minimize button in the inside. So, my problem isn't the fact that they did it. My problem is the fact they just swapped the three buttons and the Menu button/icon, and didn't try to re-arrange it in a way that would put the close button on a corner. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Moving the buttons left is a *big* step ahead. User look from the top-left to bottom-right. Currently I am a KDE-user (Kubuntu) but will switch to GNOME with lucid. Aligning the title left is also a very good idea. I never liked centered titles. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
very bad decision like to have the window controls on the right -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
For me it makes no big difference, left or right, if the developers want it this way, let it be. I left Windows almost 10 years ago, and I've changed my habits several times, this is certainly not going to be the last or the biggest. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I would have a more constructive idea that respects the ideas of canonical and the ideas of some users of the community. should also be easy to implement. Bug #542772 2 click and we are all happy. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I too am strongly opposed to this change. I just hope it does not catch on in Kubuntu, or Linux Mint. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I think it's amazing how Ubuntu manages to screw up every major version with some serious deal-breaker. 9.10 broke my wireless and graphics drivers (that worked perfectly in 9.04), and asked me for a password every minute. I never got to using it. And now 10.04 comes along with ridiculous purple colors and window buttons with changed position by default. I mean seriously don't you have enough problems with Ubuntu? There are more pressing UI failures in Ubuntu than window buttons. Why do you need a stupid double taskbar and the user to type a password (that can't even be set to a short one) every minute- Not all users are dealing with government secrets you know? - is something I have never understood. You should start thinking of messing with such things once you have as much UI poish / taste as Firefox. Also Mark Shuttleworth's attitude to this whole matter has been egregious, rude, haughty and alarming. You just lost another user. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Looking back at this thread, the issue seems completely misunderstood by Ubuntu representatives. Maybe to understand the debate, it should be made clear that this is the straw that broke the camel's back! Someone hereupper complain about regressions every 6 months... the most annoying and not quirkable maybe the wifi: In a world where more laptops are now shipped than desktops, do you think this is a minor issue? As well as constant changes in acpi/power management that break suspend since... Dapper! No, it's not. For wifi, since ipw replacement by iwl, Intel boards (so widely shipped in centrino based laptops) are subject to regressions since 2 years (and latest LTS, still not reliable): Yesterday I tried the lucid dailly build ISO (probably what will be the b1): My 3945 was at 60% strenght, limited to the worst modulation sheme (that limit wifi g BW to 1Mb/s!), 3 meters from AP... That's worse than hardy... More surprising, I'm now trying alternatives: One of them caught my attention, PCLinuxOS. Same iwl driver, but full strenght and BW, a beta that works like a charm from live USB with nvidia proprietary drivers loaded: Never seen that before. I don't know if I'll keep hardy till next year support end... and switch to Debian 6.0 that should be there meantime... or try something that is still more on the edge, but with users in mind (because sticky to the basis, as ubuntu at the beginning: Good HW support, acceptable reliability, clean interface without social networking stupidity/Apple bad copy. Hassle free rolling release: Another user centric feature delayed by ubuntu by 6 months... every 6 months!)... but upgrading to lucid is no more in my plans even if a full reinstall bothers me. The confusion between what democraty should trigger (general long term distribution orientation, usability priorities...) and what meritocraty should apply to in ubuntu process (kernel/driver expertise, applicative sw test and integration)... is really worth reading! -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
OK, just a short comment: I like change and I think Ubuntu should be able to change things to be better than their competition. But I also use Chrome, Kubuntu and Windows and this is really hard to get used to (I tried for weeks now). IMO it is better to change these things with upstream in Gnome 3.0 and not in a LTS. Thanks to all that care about Ubuntu -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I am somewhat disappointed that none of the community contributors as so far is aware of the real intentions of this issue. Moving the buttons to the left is not a change for the sake of change as someone earlier supposed. No, they are keen enough at Canonical's and have weighted this carefully. As is admitted in the mean time the movement has to do with freeing space on the right side of the desktop. But they cannot say why, for it is somewhat controversial. And neither Microsoft as Apple has done this so far. It's all about introducing commercials to the desktop! Yes people, as off Ubuntu 10.10 we can enjoy banners, pop-up windows and so on. Such as: “You have been busy for an hour now, take a Coca Cola for new Energy” or if you typed the word “boat”: “Happy Hollydays offers you a 3-day mini-cruise to the Bahamas for the awsome price of $...”. Oh, you don't like advertisements on your desktop? Well Cannonical can supply you with a commercial free version of Ubuntu at the reasonable price of $49.99. Is this weird? Time will learn. It works this way on the internet. For this moment take a deep breath (or two). -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
My mouse cursor usually hovers around the right side of windows because the vertical scroll bars are on the right. Also, since I read left-to-right, it seems easier to interact with windows at the right side. That's a very good point. There's no sense moving the min/max/close buttons to the left, if the scroll bars are still in the right. Perhaps the UI designers were trying to open space for the notifications? A better solution would be to display the notifications in the bottom right. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
On 19/03/10 10:53, Mr. X wrote: My mouse cursor usually hovers around the right side of windows because the vertical scroll bars are on the right. Also, since I read left-to-right, it seems easier to interact with windows at the right side. That's a very good point. There's no sense moving the min/max/close buttons to the left, if the scroll bars are still in the right. Our design roadmap calls for us to reduce the visibility of scrollbars, and emphasise: - touch scrolling - scrollwheels Most people don't scroll with the scrollbar any more. The use the scrollbar to gauge how much fo the document am I seeing. Perhaps the UI designers were trying to open space for the notifications? A better solution would be to display the notifications in the bottom right. No, notifications were not the primary driver. Moving the window controls to the left does ease the interaction with the notifications, though. Mark -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
No, notifications were not the primary driver. Why not simply say that you cannot tell us the reason? :) -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
** Description changed: Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side (menu - title - minimize, maximize close). Workaround To revert to old layout, enter in terminal: $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string menu:minimize,maximize,close --OR-- Use this PPA: https://launchpad.net/~stownsend42/+archive/light-themes This option will also fix the graphical appearance of the buttons. Overview Canonical design team leader - Those pesky buttons - 2010-03-10 http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 + http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute interview starting at 39:10) Mark Shuttleworth's reply (on this bug report) - 2010-03-15 - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/110 + https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/110 + ~10 following replies === To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ . -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@Mark Scrollbars are still very useful even with a mousewheel, when navigating in a large document for example by either scrolling the bar or middle clicking, please don't kill them at least *before* something as useful is implemented :) Furthermore, a lot of users (at least around me) don't even know how to use touch scrolling (or hate it because it's 'hard' to use). Philippe -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Our design roadmap calls for us to reduce the visibility of scrollbars, and emphasise: - touch scrolling - scrollwheels If you are actually considering touch scrolling, than you should also consider that touch screens are much less precise than mouse pointers: the mouse contact area is exactly 1 pixel, while fingerprints spread across a significant area. That is a good reason to keep the close button out of the way. I really love Ubuntu, and want it to succeed. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Shouldn't this bug, by now, be assigned to someone on the desktop experience team? And can anyone confirm when a decision will be made regarding this? And still no comments from anyone who was responsible for this? Other, obviously, Mark himself. Or any rebuttal to comments made in post 71? -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Forgive me if I'm confusing this bug with the one about moving buttons back to the right side of the window, but I actually like this order: gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string minimize,maximize:close It seems to me that there is some argument is around having the close button so close to non-destructive menus. So why not move it back on the right and leave the other two on the left? I'm finding that I kind of like having minimize and maximize over on the left, just not close so much. FWIW, I do prefer minimize on the left of the maximize button. I can't really explain why.. it just seems right. It could just be an i've- always-had-it-this-way thing. I can't be sure. Would it be possible to put a new tab in the Appearance capplet to control position of the window manager buttons? Maybe if we make this easily configurable (via GUI) it will enough for people? It'd be nice to have a little preview of what the top border would look like and allow the buttons to be dragged to different positions. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I totally agree with all the people that don't want such a big change in an LTS. As Mark said: He wants to free space for something NEW, but people want to work with an LTS for several years and don't want to be bothered by a design based on an in between conception. If you're sure you want to do it, ok, keep discussing with the community and implement it in 10.10 but NOT IN A LTS-Version! -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Our design roadmap calls for us to reduce the visibility of scrollbars, and emphasise: - touch scrolling - scrollwheels Most people don't scroll with the scrollbar any more. The use the scrollbar to gauge how much fo the document am I seeing. Hum... I think the very long list of concerns in current bug is a very good test to see how much this is wrong (as navigating in any long single paged document, like source code...). Experiment using a touchpad or a scroll whell on this report and hear your fingers complain! Scrollwhell is useful for line to line precise navigation. Elevators are more appropriate to move quickly on large areas. So both are usefull and current global ergonomy, after about 25 years of fine darwinian tunning process, again really make sense. This would be another error, for mainstream computer use IMO. Maybe for a MID or a tablet interface, something else could make sense: But I don't see touchscreens going in generalist computer area, there is too much people upset by fingermarks on a computer screen for this concept having any future oustide very specific use cases. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
According to comment #208, if we are going to change button position and order, this is the best: (left:) maximize, (right:) restore, minimize, close. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I hear alway touchscreens as argument. But it's a funny argument in my eyes. The pick-up'ed Icons on the panel, switch off - button on the panel, control-buttons (right or left), hide windows-applet, ... all is too small for that feature. Honestly it needs a different Desktop- Interface like the Ubuntu-Remix for Netbooks is, but THAT as an argument is ridiculous. # 253: I think it's a bad idea separate the control-buttons. Firstly it's looks hideous and second ... mhh I don't know. Don't like it. Before that, better put it all together to the right side. The best is left. Menu, toolbar-buttons etc. all in a ratio near together. I am faster now and have shorter mouseways since the new change. ,) -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
My opinion... Love em on the left!! -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
My 2 cents worth:- 1. From a purely productive point of view, having the minimize, maximize and close buttons near the menus saves having to move the mouse pointer to the opposite side of the screen under certain circumstances. Personally I would rather waste untold seconds of my life enjoying a good book or a nice wine than moving my mouse pointer unnecessarily. 2. I totally agree with the view that this isn't and shouldn't be a democracy. Coming from a Gentoo background, when Daniel Robbins left (along with autocracy), and the council came into existence (the beginning of democracy/meritocracy), seemed to be the start of some problems with Gentoo. Basically when everything has to be decided by committee/consensus view it a) slows the decision making process down a lot and b) some pretty silly decisions get made in the interests of trying to keep everyone happy. Personally I would rather have things move forward and improve quickly at the expense of a minority of decisions I don't agree with. The crux may come when a lot of decisions aren't agreed with by a lot of people and then the distribution becomes crap. We aren't there yet and as long as Mark Shuttleworth and others in the upper echelons remain conscientious it probably won't happen. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I think most people are right handed and now their way (with the mouse) is greater than before. Please let the icons on the right side of the bar. Users who come from another OS are confused and so they search for an alternative OS. Stop this wired things.!! -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
ok. guys.. I didn't read all the posts because the bickering started to make my head hurt. I am as passionate about Ubuntu as most of the people that posted here. I'd show you the tattoo but it's in a private place. :) Seriously, the passion of this argument is good but not directed in the right place. Stop and think for a second.. Dismiss all the personal attacks and clear your mind. What is one of the primary reasons that people have embraced Ubuntu so passionately? Most of your personal answers can be boiled down to one point: openness. The ability to make it your own. While I understand the reasoning to dress up the new OS to a more appealing look, it changes the usability of the interface. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. It has been assumed many times that the purpose of improving Ubuntu is to increase market share. Considering where the majority of the market share lies, Ubuntu defaults should focus on making those users (who are primarily very, VERY non-technical) comfortable with switching over. It's a sad fact, but if you make non-technical users have to think about basic usage actions, they will be less likely to switch. Most of them don't even know what a DOS prompt is in their old OS, much less a terminal in this new OS. Look at it from the perspective of the target audience, not the perspective of us that have been using it for years. If one of the goals of the new release is to pull users from the OSX religion, you are on the right track. However, I can tell you that you won't be nearly as successful as you would be targeting another market. You're are not investing your resources well at all. Rhetorical question: How hard would it be to add a toggle button under Customize Theme in the Appearance dialog? If it restricts the ability to build custom themes or opens a can worms, fine.. toss a shell script somewhere safe for those of us that could actually find it, instead of requiring non-technical users to find threads like this to feel comfortable. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Window-Buttons-Editor or *mwbuttons* (Metacity Window Buttons}, as the original script was called, (c) 2010 Pablo Seminario pab...@gmail.com. Is a simple GUI script to place the buttons on the Titlebar in any order, and right or left. Create a link, put it in the menu, desktop, menubar, etc.- The only thing missing is an option to center, or right and left the *Title text* in the Title bar. I am sure that a script could be created and added to enable Title centering into the Window-Buttons-Editor or Metacity Window Buttons script, perhaps also adding a Window-manager icon (/usr/share/pimaps/other/Windowmanager.png) to the link, or what ever icon you wish to choose. The *attached* file is the script for Window-Buttons-Editor. BavarianPH, Ubuntu forever! ** Attachment added: Window-Buttons-Editor http://launchpadlibrarian.net/41311853/Window-Buttons-Editor -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Amazing, what a fuss just because it was decided to move some buttons to a different side This is a setting and not a hard coded feature... it can be changed by the user. Let me guess all here complaining still have the default wallpaper, theme, login splash, ... you never changed nothing from the default settings. What is actually the problem when this setting can be easily changed? -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
scholli: I make no claim that this particular issue is as important as the emotion displayed in the discourse would suggest. It's like when I have a big argument with my wife over something small. Once the emotions are spent and we rationally talk through why the out- of-proportion argument happened..It's never just that one small thing. It's a series of small things..and that one just happened to be the one that triggered the release of built up frustrations. More often than not the underlying problem is that one of us is not communicating well enough about requirements,intentions and plans to the other person. Maybe the out-of-proportion response here is indicative of a systemic lack of communication from the design team about their plans and vision. Contrast how the Canonical design team works with how the recent Gnome hackfest participants communicated what was going on at the event. http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/London2010 Out of all the listed participants on that page with blogs... how many of the non-Canonical employees made an effort to communicate back about the event to the Gnome community via the Gnome planet. I can count multiple posts from participants employed by several other companies making a concerted effort to communicate to the rest of us in the Gnome community where the design discussion was going from their expert pov. How many Canonical employees made a proactive effort to communicate what was going on? I don't remember seeing a single Canonical employee who participated in those design discussions blogging about it in the Gnome planet feed. I mention that little caveat because I think it speaks to the underlying problem..a problem that will persist and color all future interactions with the community over differences of opinion in design decisions. That problem is a a lack of proactive communication on the part of the Canonical design leaders about what's going on. This should be a big concern for the community watchdogs inside Canonical. How the design team, and its growing influence over the Ubuntu experience could be the genesis of a systemic, insular corporate culture inside Canonical that is more concerned about dealing in a reactionary manner to community feedback as a drain on their productivity instead of proactively communicating a roadmap and soliciting the community for feedback early on in the design process. It's really easy to brush the egregious emotion over this one design issue aside and chalk it up to a small number of malcontents. But even Shuttleworth got dragged into making uncharacteristic personal attacks in this report. That should send up a red flag. There's something else going on here that is causing an out of proportion response. And if I'm right about the underlying problem, then the communication break down between designers and the community is just going to get worse unless its dealt with. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
It is my opinion as well that the button should be in the right edge, because this is where ALL users are going to look for it. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I would just like to add that this is very hard to trackpad users. Pushing the mouse to the right takes longer and is harder to do. Pulling your finger is much easier. If I had to test a location for the buttons I would use the center. Hopefully you consider laptop users in the decision. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Fine, move the button thingies to the left. Whatever. But the least you could do is give the users the ability to move it back using the gui, by putting something in the preferences appearance config menu, so they don't have to mess with gconfig to get the buttons to where they are consistent. Is that too much to ask for, Marky? -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I agree with Luiz Felipe Talvik. Changing it is not only completely pointless but it is just annoying the users and it is completely inconsistent with every previous version of ubuntu and every other distro (for no reason) -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I think the real problem here isn't whether the controls are on the left or on the right. If users don't like something, they will find a way to change it, and share those changes with other like minded users. The real issue seems to be about whether or not the novice user will be able to make such changes and how the applications and user interface respect those changes if specified. In xubuntu, there is already a solution to this issue. When selecting the theme, there are options on the right side of the Window Manager window where the user can select which elements are represented in the title bare and where they are placed. These options to modify become unavailable when they are not supported by the theme. Since both Gnome and Xfce are based on Gtk, it shouldn't be too hard to add these configuration options to ubuntu. I would recommend including them so that they can be accessed by opening Appearance Preferences, going to the Theme tab, clicking on the Customize... button, and having them be somewhere on the Window Border tab of the Customize Theme window. As long as the process for changing the setting can be found intuitively by a novice, I don't care where the default position is. As for my own preference, that would be on the right, in order to be consistent with the KDE apps I use, when I rdesktop in to one of the computers at work (which much to my dismay run Win98 and WinXP). I can see the merit of clearing the space for things to come, and not wanting the LTS release to look outdated, but if it will be 2 year before the things to come actually arrive, e.g., not implemented in 10.04.1, 10.04.2, etc., then I fail to see the benefit of doing this in an LTS. I would greatly appreciate it if Mark S. would indicate some of the intended uses, or indicate that he is not at liberty to disclose that information, and why (such as a statement indicating that Canonical can't afford the risk of their business competitors getting a hold of the prospective uses for the area). The secrecy without reason will only aid Microsoft's FUD-mongering. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I did not read all the comments here, but some of them are really annoying and stupid. i got used to the new position and now i like it. The only thing which confuses me is the shutdown button still being on the right. All these people here complaining about the issue with google chrome having the button on the right side: it costs you only 20 seconds to change that: open the chrome options menu, click on options, change to the personal stuff tab und choose use system title bar and borders. not really a hard. In my opinion, new themes look great. with kms and plymouth, its the most beautiful booting, login and desktop experience i've ever seen on any desktop os and by far superior the the older ubuntu releases. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
It's very disappointing to know that people don't like to try anything new, they always like to be happy whit whatever going on and usual, Lucid tried somthing new this time and all of you are disagreeing with it :( Very bad! i like th new feature and it's good! I strongly contrary to this bug! -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
On 19/03/10 18:52, Atel Apsfej wrote: Contrast how the Canonical design team works with how the recent Gnome hackfest participants communicated what was going on at the event. http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/London2010 Out of all the listed participants on that page with blogs... how many of the non-Canonical employees made an effort to communicate back about the event to the Gnome community via the Gnome planet. I can count multiple posts from participants employed by several other companies making a concerted effort to communicate to the rest of us in the Gnome community where the design discussion was going from their expert pov. How many Canonical employees made a proactive effort to communicate what was going on? I don't remember seeing a single Canonical employee who participated in those design discussions blogging about it in the Gnome planet feed. As it happens, Canonical was a sponsor and host of that summit. We had folks attending. We agreed not to have our entire design team there so as not to swamp the event and make it too Canonical, which was a concern expressed by some of the people involved in planning the event. Without us, it would not have happened. We are very serious about improving the way design is done in GNOME, and invested a lot to help all the participants improve their user experience analysis skills and processes. Now, you are welcome to draw your own conclusions, but please accept that your assumptions about other people's intent and motivations may just be mistaken. Mark -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
From a support standpoint this is a nightmare. I can see that if this was a smaller project, it wouldn't create many waves. But come on, Ubuntu is #1. I'm moving to Lucid from Hardy because of LTS. I run LTSP servers for thousands of students and teachers. They are ALL going to complain to me. As easy as it is to fix w/gconf, this is going to make Ubuntu look very inconsistent to them. That is not good for the image of Ubuntu to its users. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Mark: I did not make any assumptions about intent or motivations on the behalf of anyone at Canonical. What I am saying is that maybe...just maybe the Canonical design team isn't communicating enough about intent and motivation so that the external community can see individual changes in context of the long term vision. I've sketched what the consequences of a lack of communication can look like...but I've not spoken to what I think Canonical's motivations are in failing to layout a bright roadmap for externals to use to put changes into the correct context. But man, I'm so hoping its revenue generating Google Adwords in window titlebars...but I haven't actually said that yet. What I am suggesting is that there is a lack of communication from the Canonical design team outward into the larger community. Did I at any point question the fact that Canonical cares about usability and design? I know very well Canonical sponsored the Gnome event. But sponsoring a small team event, is not the same as communicating the vision created in that event. I saw a lot of people making an effort to really communicate a larger vision of what is going on in an effort to prepare the wider community for the UI changes that are going to result of that peer- expert meeting. And because of that effort to communicate, its going to be much easier for externals to understand how each individual change fits into a broader context. Did any of the Canonical participants at that Gnome hackfest blog or any other way communicate their experience of the Gnome hackfest? Sure Canonical sponsored it...but did any of the Canonical attendees communicate to the wider Gnome community outside that room? Its effort to communicate expert opinion to non-experts that aids in the acceptance of the larger vision...not the simple fact that the experts are in fact experts. What I am suggesting is that you and your team need to be mindful of a pattern of behavior that disregards the power of external proactive communication to set the context of a discussion over individual changes. I'm not speaking to what is motivating that pattern of behavior, what's motivating the lack of discussion about the benefits opening up the right side of the titlebar. I'm just pointing out its a deficiency in your communication strategy in that you haven't laid down a roadmap where this change makes sense in context. If individual design decisions continue on like this, communication is going to become more shrill which each such change. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Already now a large number of people are upset by the changed placement of the window controls. There's still time to fix it before the release though. Just admit people don't like the change and revert it! Put up a poll if you don't believe it. Releasing this change would have a major negative impact on usability and alienate a lot of supporters and advocates. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@Mark Shuttleworth: You said in #248, Most people don't scroll with the scrollbar any more. The use the scrollbar to gauge how much fo the document am I seeing. Can you site any references to this? Scrolling through this bug report, for instance, would take a LONG time with a mouse wheel. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Jordan: I don't think you can hold up webpages this long as typical or even moderately common usage. Having to scroll all the way to the bottom to see newest comments and to get to the Add comment box in Launchpad is more indicative of a design failure of the launchpad web interface itself than it is an example of the necessity of keeping an emphasis on scrollbars. Note the word emphasis I think we can agree that if you have to flick your finger 100+ times on your scroll wheel or your trackpad or on your multi-touch display..to get to an input box...the webpage is broken by design. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@Atel, Yes, the web is broken. Ubuntu is changing it's design, and the web is not compatible with it. The web must change. Seriously? -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@Atel I ALWAYS use the scrollbar to scroll, and I know more people who does. I just hope this possible change isn't made the same way that the buttons', and some usability testing is done before doing changes that may seriously affect lots of people like me. Not to talk about having to redesign lots of websites on the internet... and scrolling large documents in OpenOffice... are we kidding?? -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
It appears there are two items causing concern with this team. The first – the window control buttons are now located in the upper left hand quadrant of the window frame. The second - the order of the buttons has changed. There is plenty of data to support locating the buttons in the upper left corner or upper right corner of the window frame. Which is better? I do not know but my assumption is folks do not choose an OS based on the placement of the window frame controls. If that were true Mac OS or MS Windows would be different. My belief is this decision was not made by the flip of a coin, the toss of a dart, or the personal preference of any single individual. I believe the concept was discussed, debated, and evaluated as to adding value to Ubuntu as it exists today and what it will become tomorrow. As to the order of the buttons, the same arguments apply. My suggestion is let’s not be too quick to judge and give it a try. I see a work-a-around is already in place for those who feel strongly the placement is incorrect. In my opinion the community should be willing to take reasonable risks to advance the user computing experience and stand ready to accept the challenges when the bar is raised. The number of comments offered on this subject stands as evidence to the strength of the community as everyone who participates takes pride in what the final solution becomes. Maybe the communication wasn't as good as it could have been but folks are busy and things will be missed. In some circumstances there is no right or wrong - just different. Lucid will be a success and that success is something we can all be proud of as I believe it will set the standard for all future releases. Respectfully, John Artwork Team -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Respectfully I want to say that moving the buttons to the left and changing buttons position is a very bad idea, if you want to do that create a new theme and don't make it the default for the minority that wants that. Sure, I'll vote with my feet too if you ship like that because you are not validating your users, maybe it's time to return to Debian, and I really liked Ubuntu... :( -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Luckily I know understand that I can configure the buttons with gconftool. My anger is finally gone. After many times scanning the gconftool shell command I actually didn't understand the meaning of :. The good outcome of this bug is that I have my minimize and close button back on the right. Furthermore, I killed my maximize button. I don't need it as I double click on the title bar. As long as I have the power and especially knowledge (!) on how to configure my interface I don't care what the default solution is. After every ubuntu installation I rearrange many interface settings anyway, like reducing the workspace to a single one or moving the taskbar to the top. For the distro upgrades I would recommend keeping the buttons at the same location. Sensible users who don't understand how to rearrange the buttons would surely get confused. Regarding the decision making process I think it is good that Mark backs the decision of the design group. That gives the groups security that their decisions are respected. However more transparency might be helpful and for the community to help adding research (like usability studies) and discussion. The teams then can still decide on their own. Or perhaps we just don't know enough about how these special groups operate and it is a lack of communication / informaton. At last an off topic wish. As a micro Karma contributer it is still very unclear to me where to post what in the Ubuntu landscape. We have brainstorm, launchpad, mailinglists with similar topics, all where wishes can be placed. With a wish of mine I went through launchpad, gnome bugzilla, a gnome mailinglist, an ubuntu mailing list and finally got no reaction, not even where it would be best to place my wish. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2010-January/002406.html So please give us better instructions where to contribute - perhaps with a very easy to find single (!) page as a signpost (e.g. ubuntu lighthouse) with explanations and short use cases. Goto x when y ... Thank you. Rafael -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
As far as I know, there have been no papers or research published on window button placement, or the advantages/disadvantages of any of the suggested positions and combinations. What we do know already is that it appears that MS arbitrarily chose the top-right position, and Apple chose the left because they didn't want to follow MS. As with many decisions taken in the infancy of UI design, it was probably a well that seems alright or a can't think of anything better right now type of decision. These decisions have stuck with us for many years now, so there is much to be said for keeping it that way. It may just happen to be that the initial top-right position is in fact the best or close to the best position possible, and that the initial designers just got it right first time. There is a natural ease of movement of the arm and wrist of right-handed mouse users in an arc roughly centred on the elbow/wrist area. A natural pivot-point. This means that the top-right position for most-used buttons is an easily reached one. Top-left buttons would appear to be reached via a non-natural wrist movement, or a movement requiring small movement of the whole arm which entails more effort from the user. There are of course a series of mouse-movement enhancers (like acceleration) in the software which are designed to mitigate these problems. There is a natural tendency to throw the mouse pointer towards the known position of a button, and anything which makes this easier or harder will be embraced or rejected by users. There is also the principle of positional constancy to be considered. If there is no conclusive evidence to show that repositioning buttons will be advantageous, then it is better to keep the status quo. There is a saying if it ain't broke, don't fix it. People often quote this for good reason: they don't like change. Even if something is broken, there is often such widespread acceptance of the broken item, that changing it causes more alienation and or user rejection than the efficiencies a correction or fix would create. A good example is the 'qwerty' keyboard. The layout was set when manual typewriters could not keep up with the speed of key strikes by operators. The 'qwerty' layout is designed to slow down the user. This obviously does not now apply in the digital age, yet changing the vast majority of the populace away from a known bad design, to a proven better layout (e.g: dvorak) would be extremely difficult if not impossible. Any hardware manufacturer insisting on this would most likely see a large drop in sales. Keeping it all in perspective, as window buttons are probably not on the same level of user-interaction importance as the main interface device (keyboard), I would be all for change if there was good evidence showing improved window management with button repositioning, with only relatively small retraining or disruption involved. However, as I mentioned before, there does not appear to be any research to support such a change. I would suggest there is a whole PhD in such a research topic! If a window button layout, which is different from the accepted status- quo, is imposed upon users, then it is my considered belief that this will be detrimental. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Hello, i hope this was not already mentioned (i can't read 283 comments now) but when you use gnome-shell the buttons are very near to the activity button. sometimes i open the overlay mode when i want to use the buttons. This can suck ;-) on the other side when i don't use gnome-shell i prefer the buttons on the left side. David Reichling ps: Lucid will rock no matter if they are left ore right :-) ** Attachment added: gnome-shell.png http://launchpadlibrarian.net/41360675/gnome-shell.png -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
# 281: Really the minority? I had understand in a post before that 99.9% are happy with it and 0.1% unhappy... they come here in search of shout loud somewhere! and let a comment. :-) ... Well, maybe I am only saturated a little bit with the 280 comments: yes, not, anger, off-topic, chantage, ideas, datas, ... Seriously. If there a good idea for 10.10 out and the buttons have to be on the left for that reason, why don't let them do! I was skeptic at first, too, but I noticed, with time, that it isn't so bad everybody is shouting out. Surely it will exist something for change the side quickly for everybody who want have it really on the right side or because the third-game-theme looks better with the buttons on the right side Maybe a ratio-button in the preferences or a simple and little Metacity- Tool!? I think we should be curios and begin to thing different and not be a old, conservative and all new hating person. I saw that someones aren't really against this, but the reason that this is a LTS, they are in panic. But if 10.04 have it finally on the right and 10.10, 11.4, ... on the left; for the mentioned new feature, the LTS will be 2 years long a strange creature! But this had said Mr. Shuttleworth yet. Good night. :-) -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I wish Linux proponents would decide whether you want people to switch to Linux from Windows or OS X, or not. I'm just trying Ubuntu again (Karmic) after last trying it (I think Dapper Drake was the last version I'd tried previously). It has improved tremendously since then but now I read this condescending attitude by the developer and I'm wondering what is is that makes Linux developers so arrogant at times. You guys all have Asperger's Syndrome or something? If I want to be treated badly by a company that thinks that I should have no say at all in their design decisions, I can just keep using a Mac (in case you are wondering, I am NOT a Mac fanboy — in fact I sincerely doubt I'll ever buy another, it has disappointed me in many ways). Anyway, having used a Mac, I would say that it would not be a big upset to me if the buttons were on the left provided that the order emulated that which Mac users are accustomed. But it's troublesome to me that you want everyone that has learned how to get around in Windows, and/or on a Mac, to learn yet a third button pattern. This is not an insignificant thing - I, like many other computer users, have developed a muscle memory. Maybe you don't experience this and don't understand it, but some of us don't cope with arbitrary design changes as well as others. If there were some valid reason for this — if it were necessary because of some new feature or something, or even because of some legal issue, then I could understand it, but no one is saying that. So the way it comes across to me, and probably to many others who've noticed this change, is that you're doing it simply because you can, just to prove you wield some kind of power over others. It's like you're saying, Look, Dad, I can force people all over the world to change the way they do things! I can make them unlearn YEARS of habit and use the computer the way *I* want them to use it! Many of your users are telling you that this MATTERS to them, and your response is essentially Let them eat cake! Sure, those who are knowledgeable enough can change the button order, but then you run into another issue, non-standard operation between machines. Let me give you an example. When I got my Mac Mini, I was coming from a Windows machine and wanted to use my Windows keyboard and have it operate as it always had, so I went out and got a third-party program (keyremap4mackbook) that let me switch keys to make them more Windows-like. I'm happy, and certainly not frustrated by the keyboard anymore at all (though I was very frustrated the first month, before I found that program). Trouble is, my son also has a Mac, and he does not remap his keys. So guess what happens when he tries to use mine? He gets really frustrated because he's used to a keyboard that operates the way Apple intended, which is non-standard from Windows. Now you are going to have users that are used to the Mac OS X, and to Windows, that will change the button order first thing. Then you will have other users that either don't have the muscle memory issue, or are too uninformed to switch the button order. So what happens when a Linux admin who is used to the new order has to work on a system where the user has changed the order (or vise versa)? Suddenly you are raising the frustration level for thousands, maybe millions of users - and for what? For no other reason than to prove that you are the big, bad developers that can force that kind of change. How would you like being forced to drive a car where the order of the gas and brake pedals were reversed? What if there were no good reason for the change, except some designer at the auto manufacturer wanted to throw his weight around? How many people do you suppose would buy that car? And, how many people do you suppose would badmouth that company for making a ridiculous design change? Please think about it. Right now relatively few people know about this — I've just stumbled across comments in the last couple days, and I can already tell you that if you think there's a firestorm of negative commentary now, just wait to you actually come out with a release. On the other hand, if I were behind a competing Linux distribution, I'd definitely be encouraging you not to yield to all of us who are telling you this is the wrong thing to do. I'd be telling you to stick to your guns and damn the torpedoes — after all, what do users know, and what do they matter anyway? -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@Fox I agree entirely. If Ubuntu fails, this is why. Look no further. Look at how many people hate this, and yet we have the developers saying that the majority opinion of the people that use the thing daily is stupid and that the non-standard behavior won't change. It's not a meritocracy when bad things float to the top and you have a small self-interest enforcing the bad ideas over the opinions of the masses. This is exactly the kind of behavior that makes people want to get up and leave Microsoft or Apple to begin with. Ever since Canonical went and bought Mac Asay, it's been to hell with free software and trying to mindlessly mimic the Mac. :P -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Mark Shuttleworth wrote: No. This is not a democracy. Good feedback, good data, are welcome. But we are not voting on design decisions. Mark, I completely understand and agree with your position -- you are the benevolent dictator for life, and Ubuntu is not a democracy. HOWEVER, I also understand and agree with most of the critics who say that this particular change in the user interface is bad. People gave different reasons for why the change is bad. I'll give you another reason: touchscreens. In the next couple of years we're going to see more and more touchscreen devices. As you may know, our fingers are not as precise as mouse pointers. If you put the close/minimize/maximize buttons on the left side, people *will* click on these buttons accidently, when they try to open the Applications menu. And that mistake, repeated over and over, will be infuriating. If you agree that we are going to see more and more touchscreen devices, I hope you'll also agree that the close/minimize/maximize buttons should stay out of the way. You don't have to listen to our opinions, but please consider what is best for the project in terms of usability. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Hi Mark , let me make a little contribution a this controversy , a o.s. , this one o anyone should be easy to use to the novice , they should do it so that it turns out to be as easy as possible to which are not geeks , the geek o experienced linux user can tune the desk by himself , but a novice what come from winxx it can turn out to be afraid in the first moment and to retire before beginning for things tam simple as the position of the buttons, it is me who believes , allow me to suggest humbly a idea and this is an option would be nice , at the first login after install with a dialog box that shows if the buttons of a side are wished or of other and that he is this user who decides as he has left more comfortable . a cordial greeting Mark . :-) -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Still no comments from the design team at all? Compiz, Firefox,, gnome- appearance, gnome-shell, etc that will need to be remodelled? What about the users who don't like the buttons on the left and swap it to the right - will they therefore forgo the pleasures of Cool New Stuff when 10.10 comes out? Will doing so break themes? Worse still, will everything be patched to have close-on-left and therefore look stupid when users change to buttons-on-right? What about Kubuntu and the other distros which don't appear to have picked up this change? What about a simple method of feedback to guage how many users oppose this? All questions asked over and over again in this thread, met with total and utter silence. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@Mark Mr.Shuttleworth, you clearly are a more successful person than I am, and I respect your opinions to a certain degree. I only want this change to be reverted since I work with regular end-users without computer knowledge and I am sure they will react to this change in a negative way. You seem to be either stubborn or very confident. I won't discuss this change further since, after all, it doesn't affect ME personally. I can change it, most of the persons posting here can, if they like it or not.. Just think of those who got Ubuntu installed by a friend or relative, the type of people vulnerable to phising scams and spyware infections. They need to be babysitted, to put it bluntly. Your adamant replies suggest me you do have something interesting in your mind, and I am certainly not the only one wanting to know what it is. You also imply you thought of the negative consequences, so you clearly thought of the non-tech users (which are after all, the largest numbers to handle). From my humble position I suggest a little insight on the things to come. Play your cards right and you might turn hatred into hype. Being an Ubuntu user, I am naturally inclined to see my distro of choice success. It's the same reason we want our team to win. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Adam Williamson wrote: You've said a couple of times that the idea is to free up the right hand corner for Other Stuff You Will Put There Later, which is a valid idea. What I don't get, though, is why you think it makes sense to do the freeing-up before you've got around to inventing the Other Stuff. It gives people all the drawbacks of the re-arranging with none of the benefits of the Cool New Stuff, so it's not that surprising that they wind up belly-aching. That's a very good point. If there are any reasons for the change, this should be tested separately -- like Gnome Shell, which I love. The worst thing to do, in my opinion, is to do a disrupting change in a LTS. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Scaine: The problem here is that people are talking past each other. What's primarily missing is a definition and explanation of the data and data collection methodology that Shuttleworth and the rest of the design team are interested in seeing collected and will respect as being good enough to form the basis of addressing design deficiencies. Without the precise details of what the form of the data is that the design team is interested in reviewing, the external group of people who are interested in seeing this reverted are casting about making a best effort to provide the input they feel qualifies as data. So far Shuttleworth has disregarded everything people have pointed to as not meeting his definition of data. This can go on forever, further causing frustration and leading people to assume others in the conversation are acting in bad faith, until Shuttleworth puts his neck out and makes an emphatic statement as to what actually constitutes data. The ball is in Shuttleworth's court. If he wants to play ball with the community over the design process...he'll define what the community needs to do to impact it. If he doesn't want to play ball...he should just leave it at trust me and not talk about wanting data and getting everyone's hopes up. The more good faith effort people put into trying to convince him otherwise and being rebuffed as inadequate, the more emotional its going to get. The problem is... the design team hasn't set forth a workable process by which deficiencies in their decision-making can be addressed by externals. If Shuttleworth is sincere about desiring data that will influence decision-making, then he needs to communicate what that means to the layuser sitting outside the design team and who is sincerely endeavoring to provide the necessary feedback to impact design decisions. Not just this one decision...but a standing process that applies to quantifiable deficiencies in all the closed door design decisions. It also doesn't help that Shuttleworth and the design team are keeping future plans for the titlebar so private instead of sharing mock-ups as to what the open space on the right of the title could actually be used for in 10.10 and beyond. Withholding that sort of information makes it harder for others to correctly contextualize the short-term pain for long-term gain of this change. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
gnome-shell, Compiz, Firefox,, gnome-appearance, etc that will need to be remodelled? To add to the list , webpages .[chat tabs, mail tabs , info bars , in- page popups, modal popups ] All the major sites have close buttons for these on the top right. [I'm not even sure if there is a site which places the close in a different location ] When we are trying to blur the the distinction between desktop and the web, moving the close button to the left further widens the gap. User will now have to get used to two different positions for the same action. Even if we fix all the apps within Ubuntu , not sure if we can convince the rest of the world to switch too. ;-) IMO , if the new exciting stuff needs the space in the right, Ivanka's suggestion of max and min on the left and close on the right. seems more reasonable. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
http://blog.internetnews.com/apatrizio/do-not-want-dog.jpg I've read through most of the comments and justification but I still think this change is MAJOR FAIL. Please revert. I've been working very, very hard to fix Bug #1 and this sort of change is probably the most destructive thing you could possibly have done. Nobody I've spoken to likes this change, no matter how you may justify it. You may as well have changed the default keyboard layout to dvorak! -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@ Atel Apsfej: +1 But publish ideas and inventions soon in form of mock-up's can be copied by the concurrence and the Joker-Card is played before it could dig hurtful. Better believe to Shuttleworth and let him play the poker-game without rush him show his cards. I believe in his abilities, you not? -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Can people please stop complaining about the window controls being on the left side? Windows has them on the right side, but it’s completely illogical to have them on the right side. The GUI of Windows is completely illogical and causes it’s users to get RSI, because of all the mouse movement when working in Windows. To start an application, you’ve got to go to the lower left corner of the screen to click on the Start button. Then you want to do some tasks in this application, so you’ve got to go to the upper left corner to get to the File menu, the Edit menu or the icons on the toolbar. Then you want to close the application and you’ve got to go to the upper right corner to click on the X. Then you want to start another application and you’ve got to go all the way back to the lower left corner. This is completely illogical and causes RSI, because of all the mouse movement. Apple already figured out it’s better to have the window controls on the left, because everything else is on the left (menu bar starts from the left, icons on the tool bar start on the left and tabs on a tab bar start from the left). Gnome already figured out it’s better to have the Applications menu on the top of the screen, because everything else is on the top of the screen (menu bar, tool bar and tab bar are all on the top of the screen, so applications are more quickly accessable when they’re on the top too). Moving the window controls to the left is the best decision Canonical ever made. The applications are on the upper left corner, the menu bars, the tool bars and the tab bars are all on the top of the screen and most of the time only the left part of these bars are filed with menu items, icons and tabs (especially since resolutions of computer screens are getting higher and higher). Most of the clicks are being done in the upper left area of the screen, so it’s completely obvious to have the window controls in this area too. Even before the first screens of this new button layout appeared I already made the change myself. I’m running Ubuntu with the window controls on the left for more than a year now and mouse movement has been reduced. Now everything is just in one place (the upper left area of the screen). Before I moved the window controls to the left side, I was constantly moving my mouse from the left side to the right side of the screen when opening and closing applications. Completely illogical. The left side is definately the right place for window controls. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
sarcasm disclaimerthis tag may include content you can't see the funny side of/disclaimer workaroundplease read the whole post and go have a walk before replying in anger/workaround Oh dear! A pre-release version of the next Ubuntu includes a massive change to an essential element of user interface: the close button is now on the left! The world is going to end! OK, so what? If I look at all the window managers I've used in the past apart from Gnome, I count: Amiga OS (1.3), Motif, CDE, Ye Olde Mac Classic, Mac OS-X, whatever the WM was on SunOS 4.x and the old HP-PA, Windows 3.1 to Vista. The only thing I can say is that the positions of the Close, Minimise and Maximise buttons has been quite varied. In fact, the only OS in here that ever had the Close button in the top right corner was... Windows 95/NT4 and above. Every other one had it in the top left corner. The current argument reminds me of the time when we upgraded customers from Windows NT 3.51 to NT 4. Microsoft did something terrible with NT 4: they replaced the application launcher window with this weird bar at the bottom that had a Start button and they moved the Close button from top left to top right! How dare they? My customers were up in arms. Granted, considering said customers were FX and equity traders, some of them had an IQ inversely proportional to their earnings and found it difficult to adapt to the change, but still. Every time I visited them, I was told: We'll call your boss, you'll lose your job over this! We'll go to the competition! Microsoft will crash down in flames for doing this! Did I lose my job? No. Did they go to the competition? No. Did Microsoft crash down in flames? Hell no, otherwise we wouldn't have bug #1! /sarcasm Having said this, is this a major change? Yes. Should it be pulled back? No, not now and here's why: 1. Despite the fact that this thread seems to indicate that the whole Ubuntu community is up in arms, this is not the case because the sample of users in this thread is a self-selecting one. The users who see no problem with the change will never find this thread because they won't go looking for it. On the other hand, every single user who disagrees with the change will go to Launchpad, find the thread and add his own negative comment. So whatever data this thread contributes to the problem is by definition biased and should therefore not be used in the decision. On the other hand, that same data provides an interesting set of test cases as it shows a varied range of opinions and experience, which is useful for my second point. 2. Such a usability change can only be validated or invalidated by widespread user testing. No amount of polls, reviews or limited usability studies will tell you whether the change is a good one or not. And, guess what? A beta release is exactly the right way to do such testing: it's stable enough that you can give it to non-technical users but you still have the option to correct bugs before the final release. I suspect this is exactly why Mark Shuttleworth said that the current button layout would stay *for the duration of beta 1 at least*. And I believe that, if beta testing were to show that the change has a definite negative impact on usability, it would be reverted before full release. So, how, as a community, can we perform user testing on this change? Install the beta, use it, try it out as it comes out of the box. And for those who say that they support non-technical users, get them to play with it. But don't tell them anything, let them find out what's new. I'm sure you'll be surprised by who adapts well to the change and who doesn't. Now can we please all calm down and help make Lucid the best Ubuntu yet? -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
OK. Fair warning, this is long as hell, but there were some ideological differences that I felt needed to be addressed. This is a reply to Mark which is probably too way long to justify his reading it, but I'm posting it anyway. We all make Ubuntu, but we do not all make all of it. In other words, we delegate well. We have a kernel team, and they make kernel decisions. Seems reasonable enough, assuming they are reasonably open-minded individuals, who take the ideas of others in to consideration, particularly their users. You don't get to make kernel decisions unless you're in that kernel team. If by that kernel team, you mean, everyone who has ever filed a bug report or mentioned an oops, or tested SOMETHING or any of the various other cooperative activities between users and developers that have given us the kernel we have today over the last 18 years or so, I might even agree with you here... You can file bugs and comment, and engage, but you don't get to second- guess their decisions. Now that is where, IMO, you are completely wrong. NO ONE is above being second-guessed. Not a president, not a king, not Linus Almighty, nor God himself. (Who, incidentally, I don't believe exists, and if he did, should be overthrown.) I'm not going to call you a dictator because that is extreme, and a word obviously widely-viewed as being a personal attack. I will say, it seems to me your thought process is indicative of an authoritarian mentality. Why should it not be? You're a CEO... That is the job. I personally don't believe in the authority principal... This does not mean I reject all authority. The Anarchist Mikhail Bakunin put it well. It is long, but hopefully, enlightening. I've offered a brief summary in my own words that follows this, feel free to skip ahead... Does it follow that I reject all authority? Far from me such a thought. In the matter of boots, I refer to the authority of the bootmaker; concerning houses, canals, or railroads, I consult that of the architect or engineer. For such or such special knowledge I apply to such or such a savant. But I allow neither the bootmaker nor the architect nor the savant to impose his authority upon me. I listen to them freely and with all the respect merited by their intelligence, their character, their knowledge, reserving always my incontestable right of criticism and censure. I do not content myself with consulting authority in any special branch; I consult several; I compare their opinions, and choose that which seems to me the soundest. But I recognize no infallible authority, even in special questions; consequently, whatever respect I may have for the honesty and the sincerity of such or such an individual, I have no absolute faith in any person. Such a faith would be fatal to my reason, to my liberty, and even to the success of my undertakings; it would immediately transform me into a stupid slave, an instrument of the will and interests of others. To summarize: I will defer to the authority of experts, but voluntarily, and not by force. I admit, that sometimes the authority of expertise is a legitimate authority. This is why Linus writes my kernels rather than Bob down the street... or why if I get a tumor the size of grapefruit growing out of my head, I will see a neurologist...rather than Bob down the street. What sticks in my craw, is what exactly defines who is an expert on an aesthetic issue like button placement? Is this a realm where a kernel hacker has much more authority than Joe User and their Ma and Pa? Considering your argument was essentially an appeal to authority on the basis of expertise, I think this is a valid question. We have a security team. They get to make decisions about security. You don't get to see a lot of what they see unless you're on that team. We have processes to help make sure we're doing a good job of delegation, but being an open community is not the same as saying everybody has a say in everything. It is actually. It doesn't mean you have to listen of course, but everyone DOES get a say. I'd imagine you are realizing this now, if you haven't before. This is a difference between Ubuntu and several other community distributions. It may feel less democratic, but it's more meritocratic, and most importantly it means (a) we should have the best people making any given decision, and (b) it's worth investing your time to become the best person to make certain decisions, because you should have that competence recognised and rewarded with the freedom to make hard decisions and not get second-guessed all the time. I think the idea that democracy and meritocracy are mutually exclusive to any degree is an incorrect one... If anything, they are mutually beneficial. If they weren't, you wouldn't be using Debian as a base, or the Linux kernel as a core. Again this goes to my critique of the authority principal, that somewhere, some guy, some team, knows what is best, and everyone else needs to follow. This idea is
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Scholli: Do I believe Shuttleworth is infallible? No. I believe the previous mistakes made with nautilus spatial are proof enough of that. When he mistake a mistake in judgement...who's he accountable to for that if not the entire Ubuntu community? Who certified him an expert designer? He may be passionate about design but it doesn't automatically make him good at it. I'm passionate about basketball and I'm terrible at it. Whose in a position to tell him his designs are bad if not the external Ubuntu community? You can't really expect Canonical employees to go toe- to-toe with him when he's made up his mind. That's the problem with organizational structures that are built on cults-of-personality... the lines between what it means to be a meritocracy and an autocracy get a little blurry. Does that mean that all the decisions should be second-guessed? No. I'm not even really sure this one decision is even worth arguing over. But others do. The underlying problem here is Shuttleworth has rushed an incomplete set of changes onto users without laying down a roadmap to put those changes into context. If this needs to be top secret for business reasons...they could have just waited and wow'd everyone when it was time to implement the beneficial changes that require this not so beneficial change. He hasn't articulated why this change really needs to be in an LTS release when the benefits of the change are going to be experimented with in a 10.10 time frame. Isn't this sort of experimental stuff exactly why PPAs exist? Couldn't the Canonical design team work on this in a PPA and invite people to consume the PPA as early adopters? On top of that he's really giving people mixed signals about how to constructively impact design decisions. People are trying to show him data.. its just not the data he thinks is valuable. Okay...great..so what exactly is valuable data? He's not saying. His responses strain the credibility of the idea that he wants community feedback. Ubuntu is utterly and completely Shuttleworth's baby. If he wants to collaborate with the community that has been drawn into the project's promise of transparency..then he should make good on that promise and be transparent and communicate about plans. If he wants to be Steve Jobs 2.0 and wow potential consumers with innovative product offerings born from behind closed doors with no community input then he can be that instead. He just needs to decide be consistent about how he wants to interact with the Ubuntu community. Consumer or collaborators...his choice. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
El vie, 19-03-2010 a las 00:18 +, personman escribió: OK. Fair warning, this is long as hell, but there were some ideological differences that I felt needed to be addressed. This is a reply to Mark which is probably too way long to justify his reading it, but I'm posting it anyway. We all make Ubuntu, but we do not all make all of it. In other words, we delegate well. We have a kernel team, and they make kernel decisions. Seems reasonable enough, assuming they are reasonably open-minded individuals, who take the ideas of others in to consideration, particularly their users. You don't get to make kernel decisions unless you're in that kernel team. If by that kernel team, you mean, everyone who has ever filed a bug report or mentioned an oops, or tested SOMETHING or any of the various other cooperative activities between users and developers that have given us the kernel we have today over the last 18 years or so, I might even agree with you here... You can file bugs and comment, and engage, but you don't get to second- guess their decisions. Now that is where, IMO, you are completely wrong. NO ONE is above being second-guessed. Not a president, not a king, not Linus Almighty, nor God himself. (Who, incidentally, I don't believe exists, and if he did, should be overthrown.) I'm not going to call you a dictator because that is extreme, and a word obviously widely-viewed as being a personal attack. I will say, it seems to me your thought process is indicative of an authoritarian mentality. Why should it not be? You're a CEO... That is the job. I personally don't believe in the authority principal... This does not mean I reject all authority. The Anarchist Mikhail Bakunin put it well. It is long, but hopefully, enlightening. I've offered a brief summary in my own words that follows this, feel free to skip ahead... Does it follow that I reject all authority? Far from me such a thought. In the matter of boots, I refer to the authority of the bootmaker; concerning houses, canals, or railroads, I consult that of the architect or engineer. For such or such special knowledge I apply to such or such a savant. But I allow neither the bootmaker nor the architect nor the savant to impose his authority upon me. I listen to them freely and with all the respect merited by their intelligence, their character, their knowledge, reserving always my incontestable right of criticism and censure. I do not content myself with consulting authority in any special branch; I consult several; I compare their opinions, and choose that which seems to me the soundest. But I recognize no infallible authority, even in special questions; consequently, whatever respect I may have for the honesty and the sincerity of such or such an individual, I have no absolute faith in any person. Such a faith would be fatal to my reason, to my liberty, and even to the success of my undertakings; it would immediately transform me into a stupid slave, an instrument of the will and interests of others. To summarize: I will defer to the authority of experts, but voluntarily, and not by force. I admit, that sometimes the authority of expertise is a legitimate authority. This is why Linus writes my kernels rather than Bob down the street... or why if I get a tumor the size of grapefruit growing out of my head, I will see a neurologist...rather than Bob down the street. What sticks in my craw, is what exactly defines who is an expert on an aesthetic issue like button placement? Is this a realm where a kernel hacker has much more authority than Joe User and their Ma and Pa? Considering your argument was essentially an appeal to authority on the basis of expertise, I think this is a valid question. We have a security team. They get to make decisions about security. You don't get to see a lot of what they see unless you're on that team. We have processes to help make sure we're doing a good job of delegation, but being an open community is not the same as saying everybody has a say in everything. It is actually. It doesn't mean you have to listen of course, but everyone DOES get a say. I'd imagine you are realizing this now, if you haven't before. This is a difference between Ubuntu and several other community distributions. It may feel less democratic, but it's more meritocratic, and most importantly it means (a) we should have the best people making any given decision, and (b) it's worth investing your time to become the best person to make certain decisions, because you should have that competence recognised and rewarded with the freedom to make hard decisions and not get second-guessed all the time. I think the idea that democracy and meritocracy are mutually exclusive to any degree is an incorrect one... If anything, they are mutually beneficial. If they weren't, you wouldn't be using Debian as a base, or the Linux kernel as a core. Again
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Bruno Girin wrote: sarcasm disclaimerthis tag may include content you can't see the funny side of/disclaimer workaroundplease read the whole post and go have a walk before replying in anger/workaround Oh dear! A pre-release version of the next Ubuntu includes a massive change to an essential element of user interface: the close button is now on the left! The world is going to end! OK, so what? If I look at all the window managers I've used in the past apart from Gnome, I count: Amiga OS (1.3), Motif, CDE, Ye Olde Mac Classic, Mac OS-X, whatever the WM was on SunOS 4.x and the old HP-PA, Windows 3.1 to Vista. The only thing I can say is that the positions of the Close, Minimise and Maximise buttons has been quite varied. In fact, the only OS in here that ever had the Close button in the top right corner was... Windows 95/NT4 and above. Every other one had it in the top left corner. The current argument reminds me of the time when we upgraded customers from Windows NT 3.51 to NT 4. Microsoft did something terrible with NT 4: they replaced the application launcher window with this weird bar at the bottom that had a Start button and they moved the Close button from top left to top right! How dare they? My customers were up in arms. Granted, considering said customers were FX and equity traders, some of them had an IQ inversely proportional to their earnings and found it difficult to adapt to the change, but still. Every time I visited them, I was told: We'll call your boss, you'll lose your job over this! We'll go to the competition! Microsoft will crash down in flames for doing this! Did I lose my job? No. Did they go to the competition? No. Did Microsoft crash down in flames? Hell no, otherwise we wouldn't have bug #1! /sarcasm Having said this, is this a major change? Yes. Should it be pulled back? No, not now and here's why: 1. Despite the fact that this thread seems to indicate that the whole Ubuntu community is up in arms, this is not the case because the sample of users in this thread is a self-selecting one. The users who see no problem with the change will never find this thread because they won't go looking for it. On the other hand, every single user who disagrees with the change will go to Launchpad, find the thread and add his own negative comment. So whatever data this thread contributes to the problem is by definition biased and should therefore not be used in the decision. On the other hand, that same data provides an interesting set of test cases as it shows a varied range of opinions and experience, which is useful for my second point. 2. Such a usability change can only be validated or invalidated by widespread user testing. No amount of polls, reviews or limited usability studies will tell you whether the change is a good one or not. And, guess what? A beta release is exactly the right way to do such testing: it's stable enough that you can give it to non-technical users but you still have the option to correct bugs before the final release. I suspect this is exactly why Mark Shuttleworth said that the current button layout would stay *for the duration of beta 1 at least*. And I believe that, if beta testing were to show that the change has a definite negative impact on usability, it would be reverted before full release. So, how, as a community, can we perform user testing on this change? Install the beta, use it, try it out as it comes out of the box. And for those who say that they support non-technical users, get them to play with it. But don't tell them anything, let them find out what's new. I'm sure you'll be surprised by who adapts well to the change and who doesn't. Now can we please all calm down and help make Lucid the best Ubuntu yet? What would happen if you went to london with a car made for us. How long would it take to get used to driving there? Same thing applies here. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@Mark Shuttleworth There's a job waiting for you at a tabloid, if that's how you treat commentary. Isolating snippets and using them out of context is just rude. So, instead of answering him, you criticize him of taking quotes out of context when I looked and saw that, amazingly, he didn't. Instead of shutting out suggestions, maybe actually read them. Now, if you like it, that's fine, it's your very own look and feel for your distribution, but take some consideration into the feelings, comments, and suggestions of people who actually use it. I most relate this to a quote: I've never lived in a building without my name on it. - Ivanka Trump. And it seems like you won't use a distribution without your name all over it. Well, at least I hope you eat your own dog food. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 00:41 +, Dave Stroud wrote: Bruno Girin wrote: sarcasm disclaimerthis tag may include content you can't see the funny side of/disclaimer workaroundplease read the whole post and go have a walk before replying in anger/workaround Oh dear! A pre-release version of the next Ubuntu includes a massive change to an essential element of user interface: the close button is now on the left! The world is going to end! OK, so what? If I look at all the window managers I've used in the past apart from Gnome, I count: Amiga OS (1.3), Motif, CDE, Ye Olde Mac Classic, Mac OS-X, whatever the WM was on SunOS 4.x and the old HP-PA, Windows 3.1 to Vista. The only thing I can say is that the positions of the Close, Minimise and Maximise buttons has been quite varied. In fact, the only OS in here that ever had the Close button in the top right corner was... Windows 95/NT4 and above. Every other one had it in the top left corner. The current argument reminds me of the time when we upgraded customers from Windows NT 3.51 to NT 4. Microsoft did something terrible with NT 4: they replaced the application launcher window with this weird bar at the bottom that had a Start button and they moved the Close button from top left to top right! How dare they? My customers were up in arms. Granted, considering said customers were FX and equity traders, some of them had an IQ inversely proportional to their earnings and found it difficult to adapt to the change, but still. Every time I visited them, I was told: We'll call your boss, you'll lose your job over this! We'll go to the competition! Microsoft will crash down in flames for doing this! Did I lose my job? No. Did they go to the competition? No. Did Microsoft crash down in flames? Hell no, otherwise we wouldn't have bug #1! /sarcasm Having said this, is this a major change? Yes. Should it be pulled back? No, not now and here's why: 1. Despite the fact that this thread seems to indicate that the whole Ubuntu community is up in arms, this is not the case because the sample of users in this thread is a self-selecting one. The users who see no problem with the change will never find this thread because they won't go looking for it. On the other hand, every single user who disagrees with the change will go to Launchpad, find the thread and add his own negative comment. So whatever data this thread contributes to the problem is by definition biased and should therefore not be used in the decision. On the other hand, that same data provides an interesting set of test cases as it shows a varied range of opinions and experience, which is useful for my second point. 2. Such a usability change can only be validated or invalidated by widespread user testing. No amount of polls, reviews or limited usability studies will tell you whether the change is a good one or not. And, guess what? A beta release is exactly the right way to do such testing: it's stable enough that you can give it to non-technical users but you still have the option to correct bugs before the final release. I suspect this is exactly why Mark Shuttleworth said that the current button layout would stay *for the duration of beta 1 at least*. And I believe that, if beta testing were to show that the change has a definite negative impact on usability, it would be reverted before full release. So, how, as a community, can we perform user testing on this change? Install the beta, use it, try it out as it comes out of the box. And for those who say that they support non-technical users, get them to play with it. But don't tell them anything, let them find out what's new. I'm sure you'll be surprised by who adapts well to the change and who doesn't. Now can we please all calm down and help make Lucid the best Ubuntu yet? What would happen if you went to london with a car made for us. How long would it take to get used to driving there? Same thing applies here. Funny you should say that. I am French but I have lived in London for 12 years and I regularly drive left-hand drive or right-hand drive cars on either side of the channel. So yes, it takes some getting used to but it doesn't mean that driving on the left side of the road is better or worse than driving on the right side of it. You'd be surprised how quickly you adapt to either. Same thing applies here :-) -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@ Atel Apsfej: Wow. I am baffled about your ability to write and think. Here are writing many genius, but not all here have your ability to say it clear, with good arguments (points) and the cruel reality without being offensive, arrogant or simply unrespectful. I saw you are member here since February here and I don't know how much time you're familiar with Ubuntu and how much is your knowledge about Canonical's politic. I am with you with the most things you said, but nevertheless we are talking only about some simple control-buttons moved from the right to the left. I am really shocked about, how polemic that gewgaw is handled by the community. To be honest, and now I come to that what you wrote, is your wish about the transparency between Canonical and the community: I think there are some important cases where a work-together and transparency would be really nice. But do you really think that this - buttons - are a essential and important element which has to be supervised by the community? We have to spend all our spare time and energy for this thematic? This peanut can be managed easily by the design team. We should give really only datas, no emotions and without creating a religion from it. The desing team collects datas meanwhile we spend our energy in truth important stuffs. For that I am agree with #234 (Bruno) Point 2. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
im going to fedora if the buttons stay -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Pat, the buttons don't have to stay--you may put them wherever you would like. Customization is one of the really great things I like about Ubuntu and other linux distributions. My desktop barely resembles the default. Because I have a mix of Ubuntu releases and Debian as well as Windows that my users navigate throughout the day, I intend to keep default positions for the buttons for my users on the right for the remainder of this school year. I have students in my classes who use Mac at home that have consistently moved their buttons on their desktops to the left side on Hardy, Intrepid, and Jaunty. The neat thing is that for a desktop user to move his or her buttons doesn't bother anyone else--their buttons are still where they left them. (I haven't actually implemented Lucid on any machines in the lab because it is still in development. We tend to do the LTS thing on most machines. Of course, teaching Chemistry, Physics, and being Coordinator of an Eschool Program probably makes me a defining example of geek.) Personally, I think Mark Shuttleworth's idea for the default position of the window controls will remain the left, throughout beta1 is a good idea. This should give the team a good opportunity to collect solid, objective data. At this point almost everything, excluding aysiu's poll and including my examples, is completely anecdotal. Just the activity on this bug and in the forums indicates that this issue justifies some study using the scientific method. If the button order and left placement truly tests out better and is easy to accommodate, this stands a chance of really setting Ubuntu apart from the pack and competing with the big guys. Add a new functionality on the right hand side, and we have icing on the cake. In the meanwhile, if you like the buttons on the right, as is my personal preference for the time being, then, put them on the right. Unlike the GUIs found on some other proprietary operating systems, you have the freedom to implement it however you would like. Thanks again for a wonderful operating system! Mark Appier -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
My mouse cursor usually hovers around the right side of windows because the vertical scroll bars are on the right. Also, since I read left-to- right, it seems easier to interact with windows at the right side. I usually close, minimize, or maximize windows and work with menus using the keyboard, so I think I can get used to a left-handed window controls. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
But on a more serious note, people have looked to the top-right corner for window controls since Windows 3.1 atleast. Unless he is reserving the top right corner for some magical blow-job button, I think he is going in the wrong direction. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
XDD I'm really impressed how this decision has made so many noise, they're are just buttons!! and can be changed!! so, where's the problem? that everybody is used to the buttons to the right?, well, everybody is used to other OS too 1. I agree in putting buttons to left, they're better when you're used to them (So you need to use them for a while) 2. Everybody can do what he wants, even change its position, so why bothering? -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
@aysiu The problem with your Forums post is that it says this is what really happened and is, in fact, quite incorrect. Some members of the design team asked that the window controls be grouped on the left, and presented the visualisation. So it wasn't that I prefer it that way. I didn't like it initially, anticipating that it would generate a great deal of resistance. However, it does line things up nicely for work I would like us to do in future. And the major argument against it appears solely to be we're used to it here, which is important, but not overriding. Mark -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
On 17/03/10 22:34, fewt wrote: you don't get to second-guess their decisions You don't get to see a lot of what they see unless you're on that team. being an open community is not the same as saying everybody has a say in everything. There aren't any good reasons for that we are not voting on design decisions. So, its your ball, it isn't a community ball and if we don't like it we shouldn't use your distribution because it belongs to you, your team, and no one else. I get it now. Thanks for the clarification, and all of these great one-liners. @fewt There's a job waiting for you at a tabloid, if that's how you treat commentary. Isolating snippets and using them out of context is just rude. You can throw your toys out of the cot, but other than expressing a personal preference, you haven't informed the discussion at all. Most importantly, you do NOT have a say in *everything*. Anybody is welcome to participate, and it's worth building a reputation for yourself as being competent at something. If the community process *works*, that competence will be rewarded with the ability to make tough decisions. At the moment, your approach is not highlighting any particular competence on your part, other than for aggressive and unhelpful argument backed by a willingness to twist people's words - not something we have a department for in Ubuntu. Mark -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I suggest one simple thing. Move to another distribution if you don't like Mark/Canonnical's philosophy GNU/Linux world is big enough to find the distribution that fit your needs. Personally i don't find polite the way someone treated Mark (and at the same time Mark treated the community) but i don't use Ubuntu because Mark is a nice person. I use Ubuntu because it rocks. I will open gconf-editor, it's not a problem. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
I'd like to add just a simple thing: it's not easy to make every user happy... ... yes but it seems that nobody's happy.. :-D -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Hi Mark. I didn't take anything out of context, those were your words, I just put quotes around them to emphasize how ridiculous they were. If that's a problem maybe you shouldn't have said them. As for personally attacking me, well I guess when you cannot win an argument on merit, go for the jugular, right? As for not informing the discussion I believe someone who I don't know quoted me in comment #170, so there is something to chew on. Also I seem to remember making post 133 also. As for my competence, I just thought it was worth mentioning here that your users are backlashing against your decision, but what the hell do I know I just work on the core team of a distribution that listens and adapts to direct input from its users. I am also not the one trying to make the case for moving window controls to the left of the screen just because I like it better that way. Aggressive? FU. Wait, that's what you are telling your community. Nice. /unsubscribed and no longer wasting my time with this thread OR Ubuntu. Your welcome. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Mark, I want to ask you: What is you vision about GnomeShell? It fit's with what you are planing? Can we see blueprints of you plans? At first I disliked the change, now I don't care. But I must say that I hate half baked solutions... like the new GDM (you must admit it, the default theme is horrid). I've seen lately (since Hardy) that Canonical is pushing half made software in it's sane default, in the hope that more eyeballs would lead to acceptance and better software. Alpha and Beta testers doesn't make better software, programers do. The success of most of the greatest software protects is because of programing skills and good taste. That's the example of the Linux kernel witch is based on Linus taste. On Thu, 2010-03-18 at 08:28 +, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: @aysiu The problem with your Forums post is that it says this is what really happened and is, in fact, quite incorrect. Some members of the design team asked that the window controls be grouped on the left, and presented the visualisation. So it wasn't that I prefer it that way. I didn't like it initially, anticipating that it would generate a great deal of resistance. However, it does line things up nicely for work I would like us to do in future. And the major argument against it appears solely to be we're used to it here, which is important, but not overriding. Mark -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Yes, Mark: flamewars aside, please ensure buttons on the left are not turning into a nightmare when GNOME Shell is used. I can confirm that reaching e.g. the icon button in the left corner of a maximized window is very likely to lead you to hit the hot corner, especially on touchpads - and even for experienced people. It's a common practice to move the cursor to the top right corner of the screen, and then move it down to the close button of a window, instead of fighting to reach it directly. This won't work when Ubuntu switches to GNOME Shell, and reverting this after Lucid would be too bad. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Mark Shuttleworth: However, it does line things up nicely for work I would like us to do in future. And the major argument against it appears solely to be we're used to it here, which is important, but not overriding. There are many places in applications, like tabs and panels, where close buttons are on the right. Please consider Nautilus, Firefox, OpenOffice.org, all KDE applications. Consider also GNOME panel and GNOME Shell: left side for starting and opening, right side for closing session. The last sentence voices the mental model for all user interface. This bug breaks user's habits, but also makes lack of cohesion in all user interface, so new habits will not revive. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Maybe Shuttleworth should let his Communitizer handle this, if he can't keep his cool among the very community he claims this purple OS is about? Very unbecoming to lose your temper like that. Even for a dictator. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
