On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 3:35 AM Rui Carmo <rui.ca...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I’ll bite, partially because I’m used to finding resistance to exploratory > ideas and learning paths, but mostly because I find this kind of passionate, > biased argument fascinating in tech contexts... > > > On 4 Oct 2018, at 09:50, Kurt H Maier <k...@sciops.net> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:50:35AM +0100, Rui Carmo wrote: > >> I wouldn’t allow the passive-aggressive mood that surfaces here from > >> time to time to turn me off the project. > > > > How about regular aggressive? > > Regular aggressive is taking things outside the realm of civilised discourse, > which is easy to do behind a keyboard, since being irate at abstract things > seems to be a slippery slope when removed from regular human contact. > > However, it is not really acceptable, even with an attempt at (biased) logic > behind it. > > > Starting with "what project?" We're gonna slap down an alpine rootfs > > and throw plan9port in /bin? Every single person on this list has heard > > this exact "idea" with this exact lack of coherent expression at least > > twelve times before, probably from me. > > And the problem with doing that as a learning experience or for the purpose > of having better tooling is exactly… what? > > > The problem here is, in a record few number of posts, this person has > > demonstrated a desire to mix two operationg systems while demonstrating > > fundamental misunderstandings of both of them -- then in some kind of > > incompetence coup de gras, > > You meant “grace” (pronounced “grasse”), not “greasy”, as in “foie de gras”. > I can understand that mastery of foreign languages might slip away under the > kind of blood pressure involved in your original reply. > > > managed to display an utter ignorance of > > software development en route. A fine display of efficiency! most > > Kickstarter projects, for instance, take years to demonstrate this > > degree of overconfident ineptitude! > > Ignorance takes many forms, such as lack of empathy (which can translate in > some contexts to “emotional ignorance”). The attempt at drawing parallels > with Kickstarter (and the implicit bias against experimentation and focusing > only on failures) is amusing, but telling. > > > This sort of garbage post results in flames because it's > > attention-seeking nonsense of the kind that generates many upvotes on > > web forums, but no actual goddamn software. > > This isn’t a web forum. It is a mailing-list, and as such (as I would like to > think) one of the last bastions of measured, rational discourse on today’s > Internet (ok, there was ample precedent for flame wars in FidoNet, and we can > gloss over the Usenet massacres, but I think my point has a chance of getting > across). You are not helping to set a positive tone. > > >> That said, I’m fascinated by how often (and how quickly) some threads > >> devolve into “there is no point in doing that” or “we don’t need > >> those modern contraptions” arguments - reminds me a lot of some of > >> the hard boiled academia types I used to work with back when VMS > >> started losing ground. > > > > You're not fascinated by shit; that's a medium- to low-quality > > rhetorical dodge to throw mud at straw men. Stand by your opinions, > > soldier -- you don't get bonus points for fake rumination. For the > > record, I think it's a fine idea, but this guy isn't the one who's > > gonna cross that finish line. Not this decade, at least, and I'd > > lay good money that it's not next decade, either. > > And yet, if no-one tries, nobody will ever deliver on it. >
Except that many people have tried. And failed. Experimentation is wonderful, but one should always understand the previous efforts. > > If nothing else, by the time you get a decent clip down this road, you > > come to understand why the locals were laughing as you passed them. > > History is filled with people who were laughed at and changed (even if in > small ways) the world we live in. Being able to remember that is what > separates civilised cultures from biased, negative cultures that prey on (and > anticipate) failure for the sake of entertainment. Ancient Rome comes to mind > here. > > >> As much as some folk here are not exactly fond of various nuances of > >> modern tech (from Linux to X to git, etc.), I don’t think there’s > >> any need for dissing personal efforts to use or improve various > >> aspects of Plan9 (including, horror of horrors, making the user land > >> a bit more modern and usable, or at least more accessible to > >> mainstream users). > > > > Efforts? More hypothesizing? or is there some effort happening > > somewhere here? Anyway, needlessly or not, I'm not dissing any effort. > > I'm dissing a person; 100% USDA Prime Ad Hominem, just ask Irving Copi > > if it ain't. > > I parsed that as the Dept. of Agriculture until I realised there were no > animal husbandry puns to fit this situation. Regardless, I fully expected a > red “let’s make Plan9 great” again baseball cap to emerge from this argument. > Not being a political partisan, I’m not going to go there, and point out that > ad hominem is always a way to introduce fallacy when genuine arguments don’t > hold water (or alcohol). > > > You know what the best part is? If I've got it all wrong, and this > > person is indeed the Palamedes who will round out our unixy alphabet, > > then I'll still get to use the software. So let's all hope I'm wrong! > > Let’s. > > > But I'm not. > > You might. Failure to recognise the odds that you are says a lot. > > >> I’m just going to fetch my vitriol wiper now. > > > > Happy to help, > > Loved this bout of sparring. Reminds me of when I believed technology alone > could save the world, until I figured out that people (and how you relate to > them) is the whole point of doing most of what actually matters. > > Cheers, > > R.
