Hi :) I cheated first few times. I physically unplugged my main hard-drive while the machine was off and then tried the LiveCd. Just either the power or the data-cable is good enough but both is best.
Later i found some piece of junk machine. I think it was on a skip and still had an old and rubbish hard-drive in it. So i plugged it into my machine and installed Ubuntu properly onto that, hmmm, actually it was Wolvix rather than Ubuntu but Ubuntu would be a better choice. The the office place i was working in was throwing out some really old machines and i rescued the hard-drives from them too so i was able to do quite a lot of experimenting. Regards from Tom :) --- On Mon, 3/9/12, Alex Midence <alex.mide...@gmail.com> wrote: From: Alex Midence <alex.mide...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Ubuntu LiveCd & Wubi - was Java Nightmare To: "Tom Davies" <tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Tom Randall" <kf6...@comcast.net>, accessibility@global.libreoffice.org Date: Monday, 3 September, 2012, 5:03 Yes, please do not install it on your machine or it will wipe your entire hard drive and probably drive you insane and you will curse our names to kingdom come. You do *not* want to choose the install option. You want to choose the try it option which doesn't install it but rather runs your OS in such a manner that it pretends your computer's ram is a harddrive. It's amazing. If you are going to install the thing, get a computer you don't mind wiping clean. There's some cheap ones on eBay. You could get one for like a hundred bucks or something that windows would turn it's nose up at but Ubuntu would run like a charm on. Regards, Alex M On 9/2/12, Tom Davies <tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Hi :) > Most versions of Linux have a "Live Cd" option. When it really gets down to > it all the different versions of Linux are pretty much the same "under the > bonnet". Ubuntu 12.04 sounds like the best one to try first at the moment. > > > The tricky bit is that your machine's Bios might not be set-up to allow > booting from Cd. I suspect that you can edit the Bios yourself. Most users > can't but then most people have trouble installing software at all. The > added complication is that the Bios probably doesn't have a screen-reader so > you might need to get someone else to follow your instructions to do it. > Let us know if it would be good to have some screen-shots of typically > bioses or google it. > > Hopefully you wont need to worry about all that and the Cd will just boot > happily. > Regards from > Tom :) > > > --- On Sun, 2/9/12, Tom Randall <kf6...@comcast.net> wrote: > > From: Tom Randall <kf6...@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Ubuntu LiveCd & Wubi - was Java > Nightmare > To: "Alex Midence" <alex.mide...@gmail.com> > Cc: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org > Date: Sunday, 2 September, 2012, 2:37 > > Hi Tom and Alex and all. > This is good information and I am definitely going to look into it sometime > in the near future. I had looked at ubuntu a while back as well as Vinux. > I frankly don't care much which one I run again so long as it works. I > will > probably try the Ubuntu live cd solution first and then if that seems to > work halfway decent on this machine and if I don't have to jump through a > bunch of hoops to get speech up and running I will probably go ahead and > install it. As I said before I've toyed with Linux in the past even way > back in the day when you had to run it through a terminal and it's > something > I've kind of wanted to get back into. I don't have a huge hd in this thing > at the moment, I believe it's a 300GB but I can pick up a bigger one pretty > cheap at some point. Even if I don't do that right away I could probably > make Windows lose 50GB or so to install ubuntu and not miss it too much. > I'd have to resize my Windows partition but I think I have the software to > do that someplace around here. > Fortunately I have found a reasonable solution that gives me some breathing > space while I figure this out. As I said in another message I do have a > MacBook as well as a pc so I can teach people how to use VoiceOver. I have > LO installed on this and while there are some pretty serious access issues > particularly in the preferences section that make it pretty impossible to > change things, accessibility in writer and calc themselves are good enough > that I am able to do what I need to for now. I will go on the ubuntu site > maybe this evening or tomorrow and check it out. > Laters. > Tom > > -----Original Message----- From: Tom Davies > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 7:12 AM > To: Alex Midence ; Tom Randall > Cc: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org > Subject: [libreoffice-accessibility] Ubuntu LiveCd & Wubi - was Java > Nightmare > > Hi :) > Ahhh, a LiveCd session of Ubuntu 12.04 sounds like a fast way to a quick > result. > > I guess a fresh install of 12.04 on a new partition would have things set up > right too? About 10-20Gb is a comfortable amount of space for Ubuntu if you > can't share /home or Swap. The fresh install sorts out a boot-menu so that > you can choose to use a pre-existing OS that you already have on your system > but by default it puts the new install of 12.04 at the top of that menu. To > change that login to 12.04 and get to a command-line and paste in these > lines; > > cd /etc/grub.d > sudo mv 30_os-prober 08_os-prober > sudo update-grub > > If it makes a difference which side the minimise, full-screen and close > buttons are on the title-bar at the top of windows then you can change them > from left (like a Mac) to right (like Windows) by copy&pasting this line > > gconftool-2 --set "/apps/metacity/general/button_layout" --type string > "menu:minimize,maximize,close" > > Note that should be all on one line but it's wrapped-around on my monitor at > my resolution. > > > > I concurr about using MS Office if that is what it takes to get a good > result quickly. Obviously i would prefer people use OpenOffice but if using > MS Office is what it takes to get the job done then do so. Sometimes > migrating to OpenSource takes a while and until you've managed it you still > need to be able to get your main work done. > > As for Virtual Machines i think having Windows as the host and a Gnu&Linux > inside it is the 'wrong' way around. One of the crucial advantages of > Gnu&Linux is lost because you would be using the flaky Ntfs file-system > rather than the solidly reliable Ext3. I suspect that the ideal way around > would mean Orca wouldn't work (unless you ran a VM inside Windows inside the > main VM!) so again the 'wrong' way suddenly becomes the right thing to do. > > Ubuntu offers a better way than a Virtual Machine. you can install Ubuntu > directly inside Windows using Ubuntu's "Wubi" installer. Just put the > Ubuntu Cd in after booting into Windows and the option should pop-up. Few > other distros offer this type of option so you would have to use a VM for > them. With Ubuntu (or Puppy) you just get the extra possibility. > > Is there an alternative to Orca? What do other people use with LO? > Regards from > Tom :) > > > > > > >> ________________________________ >> From: Alex Midence <alex.mide...@gmail.com> >> To: Tom Randall <kf6...@comcast.net> >> Cc: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org >> Sent: Thursday, 30 August 2012, 14:21 >> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Java nightmare & FAQ wiki-page >> >> Yes, I remember all that with Linux. However, much progress has been >> made in the last two years to get thing sworking out of the box. >> Seriously, if you are pressed for time, the single fastest and best >> way to go is to download an iso of Ubuntu Precise which has >> acessibility out of the box, pop it into your cd rom drive, power up >> your machine and hit control s when you hear the drumroll. When Orca >> starts talking, alt tab to the installation dialog and select the try >> it out option so you can run it as a live installation. It will come >> up and Libre Office is already installed with all the extensions and >> plugins and so forth to make it talk with Orca. Save your files onto >> a flash drive or your hard drive so you can pick up where you left off >> next time you power up your pc. When you are done working for that >> day, simply power off your machine and take out the cd. When it turns >> back on, it's going to run windows and be none the wiser that you had >> Ubuntu running things for a time. >> >> >> I know this sounds complex but, if you are approaching a deadline, you >> need to do something to get the ball rolling. If this is not >> something you want to tackle, I seriously advise you to put aside any >> qualms you have about MS Office and load it up. You need something >> that will get the job done. Period, end of story. If your job is on >> the line, it is no time to be making statements about software freedom >> and so forth by sticking to Open or Libre Office in hopes that you'll >> stumble on some magic setup combination that'll get you going. I know >> what I am saying will probably upset some people who read this list >> but, frankly, if I have to choose between giving somebody advice that >> will keep them employed or chant the party line, the party line will >> just have to get on as best it can. I like free and open source >> software. If it were up to me, I'd switch each and everything I use >> to run a fully Libre system at work and at home. Thing is, there are >> too many a11y gaps all over the place for you to do that productively >> and efficiently without investing a large amount of time in learning >> all sorts of workarounds when there are ways to do what needs toing in >> proprietary software that you can meld with your open source stuff. I >> have found this approach to be much more powerful than the sum of its >> parts. >> >> Best regards, >> Alex M >> >> On 8/29/12, Tom Randall <kf6...@comcast.net> wrote: >>> Hi Alex and all. >>> >>> Well that certainly might be something I will consider doing at some >>> point. >>> >>> Truthfully I've played with Linux on and off over the years and if I >>> really >>> >>> thought it could replace winblows for me I would probably switch in a >>> new >>> york minute. However when looking into it it looked like you had to >>> damn >>> near be a computer science major to get it fully up and accessible, you >>> had >>> >>> to install extensions for this, front ends for that, read through reams >>> of >>> docs to figure out how to do all this, and so on and so on. It just >>> looked >>> >>> like it was going to take way more time and effort than I was or am >>> willing >>> >>> to put into it. So maybe when I can pick up a little bigger hd for this >>> system running both Linux and windows on here might be the way to go. >>> >>> This is not the place to start a windows vs. Linux debate and I assure >>> you >>> all I am not trying to start one, if people have the time and patience >>> to >>> get Linux up and running and it works for them believe me I think that >>> is >>> great and wish I could go that route. As to which platform is better >>> there's not much of a debate about that as far as I am concerned, in >>> many >>> ways Linux is superior. Alex as you said in another message and I agree >>> with this, to me the platform is secondary, however I need something >>> that >>> works, that is the bottom line. I hope I don't end up having to install >>> more MS bloatware on this system, it runs pretty decent the way it is, >>> but >>> I'm running out of time and excuses about getting this paperwork done >>> and >>> need a reliable and accessible way to do it. >>> >>> I may try going back to open office, the thing that worries me is the >>> calc, >>> >>> that is what seems to be the most problematic for me at the moment. >>> These >>> guys where I work are XL freaks and I absolutely have to have a way to >>> work >>> >>> with XL spreadsheets. I do also have a MacBook with LO on it so I may >>> see >>> if the calc is any better on there. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Alex Midence >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:46 PM >>> To: Tom Randall >>> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Java nightmare & FAQ wiki-page >>> >>> Very sorry, Tom. I'm fresh out. Open office may just be your last >>> bet. I understand they sucked in all the Lotus Symphony code. >>> Symphony has a reputation for being quite accessible. I don't know if >>> Libreoffice got this code or not. Hate to say it but, it just may >>> have to be MS Office for you in windows. The only other thing you >>> might try is using it the way *I* do but it's a bit complex: >>> >>> 1. Install vmware. >>> 2. Create a Linux virtual machine (Ubuntu works well) >>> 3. Access Libreoffice in Linux as a guest operating system with Orca >>> as the screen reader. >>> 4. Keep windows as the host system and go back and forth between it >>> and Linux in the course of your day. >>> >>> I use Libreoffice at home. This is how I do it because I have some >>> windows apps I find quite useful and because browsing the web in Linux >>> will exhaust the patience of the saintliest of men. The accessible >>> experience in Linux for Libre Office and Open Ofice is like night and >>> day compared to Windows. So, for me, I use MsOffice when I'm in >>> windows land and Libre office in Linux. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Alex >>> >>> >>> On 8/29/12, Tom Randall <kf6...@comcast.net> wrote: >>>> Hi Alex. >>>> >>>> Oh no worries about asking. So far as I can tell the assistive >>>> technology >>>> checkbox is checked, I've tried it both ways since I cannot tell for >>>> sure >>>> >>>> if >>>> >>>> the box is checked since checkboxes are not being read. >>>> >>>> This is the only program I am aware of that I am using that requires >>>> java >>>> accessibility so I have nothing else to test it with. >>>> >>>> I only have the latest jre installed, that was the first thing I tried >>>> when >>>> >>>> all this started, totally removed java from the system and cleaned up >>>> the >>>> registry and did a fresh install. This is a 32-bit system so that is >>>> not >>>> >>>> an >>>> >>>> issue. If you've any ideas I'd be glad for them. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Alex Midence >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:00 PM >>>> To: 'Tom Randall' >>>> Subject: RE: [libreoffice-accessibility] Java nightmare & FAQ wiki-page >>>> >>>> Tom, I hate to ask, I'm sure you've taken care of this but ... um .. >>>> you >>>> do >>>> have screen reader/assistive technology enabled in the options menu >>>> right? >>>> I guess the other question is, how are other Java applications working >>>> for >>>> you? Are you able to use other stuff that relies on the access bridge? >>>> Aso, how many JRE's do you have on there? I once had a problem with >>>> the >>>> java access bridge that turned out to be caused by me having 3 jre's on >>>> my >>>> system and the JAB being on only two out of those. Guess which one I >>>> was >>>> using? Installing it by hand in the third one fixed it for me but only >>>> after much frustration and wasted time. >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Tom Randall [mailto:kf6...@comcast.net] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:57 PM >>>> To: Alex Midence >>>> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Java nightmare & FAQ wiki-page >>>> >>>> hi Alex, Tom and all. >>>> >>>> Yes I am indeed on this list. Here's the latest update. I forced Java >>>> to >>>> do an update so that it would presumably get the latest version with >>>> the >>>> Jab >>>> pre-installed so I wouldn't have to monkey with that. This appeared to >>>> go >>>> fine and I was able to turn on the Jab via the Windows control panel. >>>> When >>>> I run LO 3.60 and go into the java it shows that java is correctly >>>> installed >>>> with accessibility. However it behaves exactly the same, menus are not >>>> read >>>> and neither is the state of checkboxes. When I have the energy I am >>>> going >>>> to totally uninstall it and delete all data and install the latest >>>> version >>>> from the site and see if that works. >>>> >>>> I used Open Office for quite some time and as you said found it pretty >>>> acceptable in most cases and I suppose I could go back to that if >>>> necessary. >>>> >>>> I just figured it'd be better to be running something that is still >>>> being >>>> developed and worked on. Fortunately I do not need the presentation >>>> package >>>> so whether impress is accessible or not doesn't matter to me all that >>>> much >>>> although I would hope this will be worked on. What I absolutely have >>>> to >>>> have is writer and calc working, I have to be able to process documents >>>> and >>>> do invoices for my work. >>>> >>>> So that's where I am now. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Alex Midence >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:22 AM >>>> To: Tom Davies >>>> Cc: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org ; Tom Randall >>>> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Java nightmare & FAQ wiki-page >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Sorry to hear you are having such a time of it. I don't know how open >>>> you >>>> are to this suggestion but, I've had success with Open Office in >>>> Windows. >>>> Libreoffice has not worked for me. I use Jaws and NVDA. I have never >>>> used >>>> Supernova so, I don't know how it will react but Openoffice 3.6 (I >>>> think >>>> that's the latest release), worked ok in writer. Jaws even read Writer >>>> ok. >>>> NVDA did just wonderfully with it. >>>> Calc was usable in NVDA but not in Jaws so, I don't know how it'll do >>>> in >>>> Supernova. Impress was totally unusable pretty much all around. >>>> It was a bummer for me. I'm a corporate trainer. I get up in front of >>>> groups of people with presentations up on a projecter and gas away at >>>> them >>>> about this and that. Thus far, I hate to say it but Microsoft >>>> Powerpoint >>>> is >>>> the best and most accessible presentation product for someone in my >>>> situation. Impress has yet to Impress me in either Libre or Open >>>> Office. >>>> >>>> hth, >>>> Alex M >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8/29/12, Tom Davies <tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >>>>> Hi :) >>>>> I am not sure if Tom Randall is on this list. You guys seem to have >>>>> solved a lot of these java issues so i thought forwarding the thread >>>>> here just in case you can help hi8m where others can't. >>>>> >>>>> Also i made a rough wiki-page that is intended to help people solve >>>>> java issues. >>>>> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Faq/Java >>>>> I think it might need sub-pages to deal with issues such as the >>>>> bridge. >>>>> If >>>>> you are able to radically rewrite the wiki-page to make it useful and >>>>> need me to make extra sub-pages then please just let me know through >>>>> this >>>> list. >>>>> It sometimes takes me a couple of days to react so my apologies for >>>>> being so slack! If you are new to wiki-editing then i might be able >>>>> to help with formatting and other issues. >>>>> Regards from >>>>> Tom :) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to >> accessibility+h...@global.libreoffice.org >> Problems? >> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ >> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >> deleted >> >> >> >> > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to > accessibility+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to > accessibility+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to accessibility+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to accessibility+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
