How does calling the disabled as divinely bodied stop their development? Look at the feeling, not the word.
On 12/11/15, bala9119 <bala9...@gmail.com> wrote: > Where is development? calling the disabled as people with divine body > means we are developed? good. > cheers. > On 12/11/15, Avichal Bhatnagar <coolavic...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Yes, so that the disabled get only their statues erected instead of >> development. >> >> On 12/11/15, bala9119 <bala9...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Let the disabled have Kanshiram or Mayavati but not another Narendra >>> Modi! only one is enough to blindfold the population. >>> cheers. >>> On 12/11/15, avinash shahi <shahi88avin...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Someone was suggesting an analogy between MK Gandhi's 'harijan' and >>>> Modi's 'divyang'! So Gandhi had special love for 'harijan' and our PM >>>> has for 'divyang'. Perhaps Disability sector will soon have Kanshiram >>>> and Mayawati in the days to come, smiles. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/11/15, Asudani, Rajesh <rajeshasud...@rbi.org.in> wrote: >>>>> Divyang in english means >>>>> "Divine body" >>>>> Or >>>>> divine organs. >>>>> >>>>> No, nothing is wrong as Modi baba has pronounced it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> सादर / With thanks & Regards >>>>> राजेश आसुदानी Rajesh Asudani >>>>> सहायक महाप्रबन्धक AGM >>>>> बाजार आसूचना ईकाई MIU >>>>> भारतीय रिजर्व बैंक Reserve Bank of India >>>>> नागपुर Nagpur >>>>> >>>>> 0712 2806846 >>>>> >>>>> President >>>>> VIBEWA >>>>> Co-Moderator >>>>> VIB-India >>>>> >>>>> A-pilll = Action coupled with Positivity, Interest, Love, Logic and >>>>> laughter. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Avichal Bhatnagar >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 1:00 PM >>>>> To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues >>>>> concerning >>>>> the disabled. >>>>> Subject: Re: [AI] FYI: 'Disabled rights Bill to be put before cabinet >>>>> in >>>>> a >>>>> day or two' >>>>> >>>>> Whats wrong in divyang? >>>>> To me, this word sounds far better than viklang. >>>>> >>>>> On 12/10/15, Misbah <jnu.mis...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> Absolutely nonsense >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12/9/15, sazid shaik <ashwaqahmed....@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> dear list what is the meaning in english? As i am poor in hindi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/8/15, nitesh gupta <nitesh...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> After a regress fight we started getting Jobs but when we will get >>>>>>>> some reservations in promotions? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 12/8/15, Anirban Mukherjee <sparsha.anir...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> friends, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> i have a question to our hon'ble PM. how would he choose to >>>>>>>>> describe >>>>>>>>> people with intellectual/psychosocial disabilities? my hindi is >>>>>>>>> poor, >>>>>>>>> so, could anyone come up with a hindi word? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> regards, Anirban Mukherjee >>>>>>>>> follow me on twitter @anirbansparsha >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 12/8/15, avinash shahi <shahi88avin...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> And I was shocked not to see any press statement by any of the >>>>>>>>>> organisations on 'Divyang'. What should we infer out of all these >>>>>>>>>> developments took place over the week? I mean, 'accessible India' >>>>>>>>>> launch, march to parliament for advocating passage of the RPD Bill >>>>>>>>>> prior to it was put before the cabinet and scores of conferences >>>>>>>>>> celebrating IDPD. Disability week passed off with regular >>>>>>>>>> programmes >>>>>>>>>> but no state pledged commitment to ensure employment quota which >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> overdue for long. Now The weather is dull, cause the disability >>>>>>>>>> honeymoon period is over. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 12/8/15, bala9119 <bala9...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Divyang? Divine Body? >>>>>>>>>>> Why don't he blindfold his eyes and perform his PM's task at >>>>>>>>>>> least >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> a day? after finding the gods and goddesses in Cows, they've >>>>>>>>>>> turned >>>>>>>>>>> towards the disabled to seek divinity. good. >>>>>>>>>>> cheers. >>>>>>>>>>> On 12/8/15, Asudani, Rajesh <rajeshasud...@rbi.org.in> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, so divyang, divine body. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Why god chooses to maim some and blind others, take away ears, >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> deplete >>>>>>>>>>>> brain, Modi jee? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> सादर / With thanks & Regards >>>>>>>>>>>> राजेश आसुदानी Rajesh Asudani >>>>>>>>>>>> सहायक महाप्रबन्धक AGM >>>>>>>>>>>> बाजार आसूचना ईकाई MIU >>>>>>>>>>>> भारतीय रिजर्व बैंक Reserve Bank of India >>>>>>>>>>>> नागपुर Nagpur >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 0712 2806846 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> President >>>>>>>>>>>> VIBEWA >>>>>>>>>>>> Co-Moderator >>>>>>>>>>>> VIB-India >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> A-pilll = Action coupled with Positivity, Interest, Love, Logic >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> laughter. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: AccessIndia >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] >>>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>>>> Of avinash shahi >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 3:59 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: accessindia; jnuvision >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [AI] FYI: 'Disabled rights Bill to be put before >>>>>>>>>>>> cabinet >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> day >>>>>>>>>>>> or two' >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/disabled-rights-bill-to-be-put-before-cabinet-in-a-day-or-two/articleshow/50042016.cms >>>>>>>>>>>> The RPD Bill is expected to be put before the Union Cabinet for >>>>>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>>>>> consideration "in a day or two", a senior government official >>>>>>>>>>>> said.ET >>>>>>>>>>>> SPECIAL:Love visual aspect of news? Enjoy this exclusive >>>>>>>>>>>> slideshows >>>>>>>>>>>> treat!NEW DELHI: The Rights of Persons with Disabilities Bill is >>>>>>>>>>>> expected to be put before the Union Cabinet for its >>>>>>>>>>>> consideration >>>>>>>>>>>> "in >>>>>>>>>>>> a day or two", a senior government official said here today. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The secretary of the Department of Empowerment of Persons with >>>>>>>>>>>> Disabilities, Lov Verma, also said the word 'handicapped' used >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> national institutes would be replaced with 'impairment' as a >>>>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> "changing attitude" towards persons with disabilities (PwDs). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Verma's statement came a day after Prime Minister Narendra Modi >>>>>>>>>>>> suggested the word "viklang" (disabled) used for describing PwDs >>>>>>>>>>>> should make way for "divyang" (divine body). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "We are bringing the new act, it should come before cabinet in a >>>>>>>>>>>> day >>>>>>>>>>>> or two," Verma said at a conference on disability here. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The new Bill seeks to replace the Persons with Disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>> (Equal >>>>>>>>>>>> Opportunities, Protection of Rights and Full Participation) Act, >>>>>>>>>>>> 1995. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It was introduced in Rajya Sabha in 2014 by the then UPA >>>>>>>>>>>> government >>>>>>>>>>>> and moved to the Parliamentary Standing Committee of the >>>>>>>>>>>> Ministry >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> Social Justice and Empowerment under which the department works. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Verma said the new Bill proposes to increase job reservations to >>>>>>>>>>>> PwDs >>>>>>>>>>>> from 3 per cent to 5 per cent and also widen scope of >>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>> covered under the Bill from earlier 7 to 19. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "We have also proposed to add a clause that will allow us to >>>>>>>>>>>> increase >>>>>>>>>>>> scope of number of disabilities under the act if required," he >>>>>>>>>>>> added. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Referring to Modi's suggestion regarding describing PwDs as >>>>>>>>>>>> "divyang", >>>>>>>>>>>> Verma said, "So, the change of nomenclature... We will follow >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> up. >>>>>>>>>>>> The word 'handicapped' is there in many of our national >>>>>>>>>>>> institutes. >>>>>>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>>>>>> are replacing it with 'impairment'." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The official further said the government has set itself a target >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> training 1 lakh PwDs during this year under the National Action >>>>>>>>>>>> Plan >>>>>>>>>>>> for Skill Trai >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Avinash Shahi >>>>>>>>>>>> Doctoral student at Centre for Law and Governance JNU >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Search for old postings at: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>>>>>>>>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>>>>>>>>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other >>>>>>>>>>>> changes, >>>>>>>>>>>> please >>>>>>>>>>>> visit the list home page at >>>>>>>>>>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Disclaimer: >>>>>>>>>>>> 1. 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AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> mails >>>>>>>>> sent through this mailing list.. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Skype: nitesh.gupta185 >>>>>>>> Personal Email:niteshguptaobc...@gmail.com >>>>>>>> "good person is not one who thinks good but he is one who does good. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >>>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>>>>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Search for old postings at: >>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>>>>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>>>>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other >>>>>>>> changes, >>>>>>>> please >>>>>>>> visit the list home page at >>>>>>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Disclaimer: >>>>>>>> 1. 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AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >>>>>>>> mails >>>>>>>> sent through this mailing list.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>>>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Search for old postings at: >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>>>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>>>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, >>>>>>> please >>>>>>> visit the list home page at >>>>>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Disclaimer: >>>>>>> 1. 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AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >>>>>>> mails >>>>>>> sent through this mailing list.. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> with regards >>>>>> Misbah >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >>>>>> accessibility >>>>>> of >>>>>> mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Search for old postings at: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>>>> >>>>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, >>>>>> please >>>>>> visit the list home page at >>>>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Disclaimer: >>>>>> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking >>>>>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>> person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its >>>>>> veracity; >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >>>>>> mails >>>>>> sent through this mailing list.. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Avichal bhatnagar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility >>>>> of >>>>> mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Search for old postings at: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>>> >>>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, >>>>> please >>>>> visit the list home page at >>>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Disclaimer: >>>>> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking >>>>> of >>>>> the >>>>> person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its >>>>> veracity; >>>>> >>>>> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >>>>> mails >>>>> sent through this mailing list.. >>>>> >>>>> Caution: The Reserve Bank of India never sends mails, SMSs or makes >>>>> calls >>>>> asking for personal information such as your bank account details, >>>>> passwords, etc. It never keeps or offers funds to anyone. Please do not >>>>> respond in any manner to such offers, however official or attractive >>>>> they >>>>> may look. >>>>> >>>>> Notice: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential >>>>> and >>>>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they >>>>> are >>>>> addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, >>>>> use, >>>>> review, distribution, printing or copying of the information contained >>>>> in >>>>> this e-mail message and/or attachments to it are strictly prohibited. >>>>> If >>>>> you >>>>> have received this email by error, please notify us by return e-mail >>>>> or >>>>> telephone and immediately and permanently delete the message and any >>>>> attachments. The recipient should check this email and any attachments >>>>> for >>>>> the presence of viruses. The Reserve Bank of India accepts no >>>>> liability >>>>> for >>>>> any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility >>>>> of >>>>> mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Search for old postings at: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>>> >>>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, >>>>> please >>>>> visit the list home page at >>>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Disclaimer: >>>>> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking >>>>> of >>>>> the >>>>> person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its >>>>> veracity; >>>>> >>>>> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >>>>> mails >>>>> sent through this mailing list.. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Avinash Shahi >>>> Doctoral student at Centre for Law and Governance JNU >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility >>>> of >>>> mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>> >>>> >>>> Search for old postings at: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>> >>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, >>>> please >>>> visit the list home page at >>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>>> >>>> >>>> Disclaimer: >>>> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of >>>> the >>>> person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; >>>> >>>> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >>>> mails >>>> sent through this mailing list.. >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "It doesn't matter what we have, but it really matters what we do with >>> what we have." >>> >>> With Sincere Regards >>> >>> Balanagendran. D >>> IAS Aspirant >>> Skype: balanagendran >>> Twitter: >>> http://twitter.com/balanagendran89 >>> >>> >>> >>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility >>> of >>> mobile phones / Tabs on: >>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>> >>> >>> Search for old postings at: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>> >>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>> >>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, >>> please >>> visit the list home page at >>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in >>> >>> >>> Disclaimer: >>> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of >>> the >>> person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; >>> >>> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >>> mails >>> sent through this mailing list.. >>> >> >> >> -- >> Avichal bhatnagar >> >> >> >> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility of >> mobile phones / Tabs on: >> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in >> >> >> Search for old postings at: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >> >> To unsubscribe send a message to >> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >> with the subject unsubscribe. >> >> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, >> please >> visit the list home page at >> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in >> >> >> Disclaimer: >> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of >> the >> person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; >> >> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the mails >> sent through this mailing list.. >> > > > -- > "It doesn't matter what we have, but it really matters what we do with > what we have." > > With Sincere Regards > > Balanagendran. D > IAS Aspirant > Skype: balanagendran > Twitter: > http://twitter.com/balanagendran89 > > > > Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility of > mobile phones / Tabs on: > http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in > > > Search for old postings at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to > accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in > with the subject unsubscribe. > > To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, please > visit the list home page at > http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in > > > Disclaimer: > 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of the > person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; > > 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the mails > sent through this mailing list.. > -- Avichal bhatnagar Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in Search for old postings at: http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ To unsubscribe send a message to accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in with the subject unsubscribe. To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, please visit the list home page at http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in Disclaimer: 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the mails sent through this mailing list..