I agree that training organizations could look at providing some orientation about Narrator.
One of my recent experience is illustrative. My laptop crashed a couple of times due to faulty hard disk and I had to take data out of my system. Since my windows was not starting, I could not operate my laptop independently. I then found out that windows 10 has a feature known as windows to go. Windows to go prepares a flash drive for bootable installer, and Using another software I could create a bootable flash drive. Once my laptop booted from the flash drive, I could operate my machine independently with the help of narrator. Unfortunately, windows to go has some restrictions so one can only install apps that are downloaded from windows store which means I could not install NVDA. This problem would be solved once NVDA is available from the windows store, but it takes some time and assistance to download software from the windows store. On the other hand, starting narrator is only pressing a few keystrokes. If someone has such a bootable drive with them, he or she could operate on any computer. I also agree with having multiple options for screen readers as multiple options encourage competition which helps the products to improve. At the same time, I think narrator still has a long way to go before it could become a full time screen reader as mentioned by Prashant. -----Original Message----- From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On Behalf Of Shilpi Kapoor Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 3:31 PM To: accessindia@accessindia.org.in Subject: Re: [AI] Narrator as a screen reader come of age Hi All, Great to see this dialogue on screen readers and what do we teach and what do we use. Here is my two bits and I won't go to the point of saying teach one or another: - We need to ensure that students have an early initiation to Screen Readers. They should be able to access technology as early as their peers. What we have to teach is the concepts of the screen reader! For example, what is a desktop, what is a start button, how does it behave, what is a page, how can we use the calculator. At that stage, even a Narrator is great as exposure. Let's understand that Narrator is getting better. It is already in the operating system, it has no additional cost. I honestly believe it is the right step at schools. - As the needs of the person increase on what they have to do, then the choice of screen reader is based on what they want to do with it. If the usage is for Excel and at that point NVDA or JAWS is better for their work, that choice should be theirs and based on the use case. I think instead of worrying of which is the right screen reader, we need to see how to make screen readers that important tool early on in students lives. After teaching loads of people computers and hiring lots of people with disabilities, we need people to be agile in their use of technology. In technology, you have to be able to adapt. I hear Vasu, when he says reasonable accommodation. But I also know that as organizations we decide what technology a person will use. That is the reality. You find some people say we use a particular software as an organization, must be as simple as Skype for Business and another might say we use Zoom for the same purpose of online conferencing. We need to be ready to explore different solutions. Regards Shilpi -----Original Message----- From: AccessIndia <accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in> on behalf of Srinivasu Chakravarthula <li...@srinivasu.org> Reply-To: "accessindia@accessindia.org.in" <accessindia@accessindia.org.in> Date: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 5:45 AM To: "accessindia@accessindia.org.in" <accessindia@accessindia.org.in> Subject: Re: [AI] Narrator as a screen reader come of age George, Here is a link to Keyboard commands of Narrator: https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-in%2Fhelp%2F22806%2Fwindows-10-narrator-keyboard-commands-touch-gestures&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd11b340c16cd4c46650108d5d04b9fa4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636643945583505320&sdata=8KMYk2LcbBPYLy596is5sF1NCGgfbM8GMBKZtTc%2BEJA%3D&reserved=0 Harish, I respectfully disagree to the point if organizations have restrictions to downloads applications such as NVDA; that's a reasonable accommodation and organizations cannot deny. Until Narrator comes to a decent level where we can use on usual applications like excel etc., I would not prefer providing this as an otpion to use at organizations. Thanks, Srinivasu Regards, Srinivasu Chakravarthula - Twitter: https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FCSrinivasu%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd11b340c16cd4c46650108d5d04b9fa4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636643945583505320&sdata=ZfKB4wuSCg5nNZEt8UVsUoYgLielR0%2FJ4Qf%2BciG9mjU%3D&reserved=0 Website: https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.srinivasu.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd11b340c16cd4c46650108d5d04b9fa4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636643945583505320&sdata=iIBlF4LZFoun4vl8gU%2BUENf9fDrEQT6uwvQeI%2FMtR%2Fg%3D&reserved=0 | https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fserveominclusion.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd11b340c16cd4c46650108d5d04b9fa4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636643945583505320&sdata=67MGDvbprAzrkLsGyJdVlNFFZ1hk%2Fx03EpBTfL5y8JI%3D&reserved=0 Let's create an inclusive web! Lead Accessibility Consultant, Informatica On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 2:49 PM, George Abraham <geo...@eyeway.org> wrote: > Where can I find the key strokes and other information to get started with > Narrator? > > -----Original Message----- > From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On > Behalf > Of Kotian, H P > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 2:02 PM > To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning > the disabled. > Subject: Re: [AI] Narrator as a screen reader come of age > > Hi > > I will leave this thread with the final remarks. > > 1 I have been requesting the computer training centres to introduce > narrator > as a screen reader in their training programme. If it seems logical, take > it > or leave it. I do understand, the keystroke used is quite different from > other screen readers and the existing computer users may not take the > trouble for switch over. I have only been asking for the new users to be > trained in Narator. I did not tell everyone to switch to narrator. > > 2 We can now tell application developers to check accessibility first hand > on Narator as a standard screen reader. So far we could only ask them to > use > the commercial screen reader on a demo mode and the limitation of this > approach is best understood by us than anybody else. NVDA was certainly a > option. Many came back to me the voice is impossible. > > 3 Many work place have lots of restriction in downloading and installing > applications. If one is trained in Narrator, it will save the day. > > 4 Many exams are now held online and here too there are umpteen restriction > in installing applications. One who is conversant in narrator will find > himself in a advantage. > > > Consider this if it makes sense or simply forget it as rubbish Both ways it > is fine with me. > > Finally, NVDA is my screen reader of choice and I use it a good deal. I do > intent to devote time for Narator now. > > Harish. > > -----Original Message----- > From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On > Behalf > Of Prashant Ranjan Verma > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 11:13 PM > To: 'AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning > the disabled.' <accessindia@accessindia.org.in> > Subject: Re: [AI] Narrator as a screen reader come of age > > While I support development of the Narrator and hope that someday it will > be > as good as NVDA and Jaws with all advanced features, I am cautious because > of the MacOS experience. > > The screen reader on iOS is great but on the desktop platform Mac is not > the > first choice of blind persons even in USA and Europe. > On the desktop environment, a lot more features are required as compared to > the mobile OS. Voiceover on Mac has not reached the level of Jaws and NVDA > and to most the keystrokes are also very cumbersome to learn. > > For now the question an average user will ask are: > Is Narrator better than NVDA? If not then why should I switch? > Is Narrator supporting all my requirements like scanning books, word > processing, presentations, call conferencing, Excel etc.? > Is Narrator working with Indian languages like Hindi? is typing and editing > fully supported in regional languages? > > Till the time the answer is yes to above questions, it is good to let the > new users know about Narrator but train them on using NVDA only. > Once people are good users of the computer, they can compare and choose for > themselves. Actually they can use different screen readers for different > requirements depending upon their strengths. > > And note that I am involved in the development of accessibility of Edge > browser and thereby contributing a bit towards Windows accessibility. I > have > nothing against Microsoft. I also want operating systems to build complete > accessibility eliminating the need to procure third party Assistive > technology. > > thanks, > Prashant > > -----Original Message----- > From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On > Behalf > Of Vikas Kapoor > Sent: 11 June 2018 21:56 > To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning > the disabled. <accessindia@accessindia.org.in> > Subject: Re: [AI] Narrator as a screen reader come of age > > Even in the Android OS, there are certain things which talkback is not able > to perform while the same tasks are very well handled by Shine Plus, > another > very good screen reader for Android platform. Even I am also of the opinion > that we should keep multiple screen readers handy, be it Windows or > Android, > to be able to cope with different types of challenges. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kotian, H P > To: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues > concerning > the disabled. > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 10:54 AM > Subject: Re: [AI] Narrator as a screen reader come of age > > > Hi Prashant > > It was certainly Microsoft did not have technical challenges to make a > good screen reader. I suppose because of IOS and Android, Microsoft got a > realization, they could not hold it any more. > > To my understanding, they gave space for assistive technology companies > to > grow and compete. Now as it stands today all have withered away and this > may > be another factor for MS to reenter into this space. > > As I see narrator today, I think, MS will take narrator in full steam. > The > mood and inclination seems poised to provide 3rd party support. In my > opinion computer training centres should onboard this development to make > their course relevant and contextual. > > I would not really call it a set back to NVDA development. One can't have > only one screen reader as a solution. There are occasions where one screen > reader out performs another. It should be users choice where and when he > chooses to use which screen reader. This can only be done when the choices > are inherently rich enough in features and capabilities. > > I would consider it regressive if training centres do not make aware and > provide suitable training even when screen reader is sufficiently capable. > > Although screen reader development is a tricky business, there should not > be a forced cost to it. Accessibility should be inherently available to use > the platform. > > Harish. > > -----Original Message----- > From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On > Behalf Of Prashant Ranjan Verma > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 8:34 AM > To: 'AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues > concerning the disabled.' <accessindia@accessindia.org.in> > Subject: Re: [AI] Narrator as a screen reader come of age > > Yes, Narrator has really improved by leaps and bounds. But I would still > not recommend anyone to switch to it given that NVDA is also available free > of cost. > It needs to be seen if Microsoft continues to develop Narrator and more > importantly if they put resources in supporting third party applications > and > develop advanced screen reader features. Also it needs to be seen if > Microsoft allows users to customize it and build add-ons for different > needs. > > If they continue to develop it over the next one or two years then I > think > NVDA usage will get a big setback. > For now the super users can keep testing and evaluating it. > -----Original Message----- > From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On > Behalf Of Harish Kotian > Sent: 10 June 2018 10:59 > To: accessindia@accessindia.org.in > Subject: [AI] Narrator as a screen reader come of age > > Hi All > > > Narrator has really taken off ultimately in the latest update on Win10. > > > I would urge all the computer training centers to focus on narrator as a > screen reader. > > There are plenty of enhancements as a result of which it is now > possible to switch to it as a primary screen reader. Although the key > combinations are not intuitive one will have to invest sometime on it. > > To check if you are running the latest build of Win10, Run narrator and > type the combination of caps+ a, a few times. If it keeps increasing the > verbosity level, this can be a easy test. The old build had only two states > as a toggle. > > A very unique feature which is new is that it can now describe any image > using artificial intelligence. > > Harish > > > > > > Search for old postings at: > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Faccessindia%40accessindia.org.in%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd11b340c16cd4c46650108d5d04b9fa4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636643945583505320&sdata=FIAv3cTe45qhnyqroTXXbv9aqruqFbtW5MsUUefPq3s%3D&reserved=0 > > To unsubscribe send a message to > accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in > with the subject unsubscribe. > > To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, > please visit the list home page at > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faccessindia.org.in%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Faccessindia_accessindia.org.in&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd11b340c16cd4c46650108d5d04b9fa4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636643945583505320&sdata=OgJo5h%2BxGzFBgAovE5qGq4GZWrsFBVWKI1vB0R3F34Q%3D&reserved=0 > > > Disclaimer: > 1. 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