"I also agree...that the best way to learn the material is to teach it."
I don't necessarily agree with this based on a few MCTs I've endured and one I walked out on. Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joe Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 4:20 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] salary(OT) I would have to concur with most if not all of this. I don't much mind the OT posts as long as the subject is prefixed with a [OT] so it can be easily filtered out when sorting by subject or even if you use outlook to colorize the messages or folderize them or something else. Even the OT posts often seem to be a source of great learning. I have to say that I particular agree with the google piece. Google is your friend, maybe at some point MSN Search will also be your friend as well even though you can use the name as a verb. In addition, no one is automatically a great let alone good troubleshooter. It is one of those things where you watch others solve issues in front of you or you work hard trying to noodle through the problem. You look at perf counters you look at network traces and you figure it out. Something weird going on, do a netmon of it working and of it not working, what is the difference? You don't necessarily have to be a network tracing expert to do that. I started out that way and slowly grew to being able to generally get a feel for what is going on in a trace. No one sat me down and said this is how you do it, here are some pointers, etc. I had the one Enterprise NT4 course which mostly just burned your brain out versus teaching anything useful. I learned too things when I came out of that course, I learned I hated network traces and I learned that if you hear a word enough times in a one hour period that word will cease to connect to anything in your mind. I got to the point where I could hear the word "trust" and I honestly couldn't associate it with anything. It was like I had never heard the word in my entire life. So anyway, run into an issue, keep bumping into it and try to work through it. Google it, try to teach yourself as much about it as possible. You can certainly ask and if the answer is quickly returned, there is a good chance you won't learn nor recall it. I also agree with Susan that the best way to learn the material is to teach it. I used to tutor folks at Michigan State forever ago and besides getting lots of good dates, I found I learned Calculus, Physics, and the various C and ASM coursework much better because I had to explain it to someone in a way that made sense to them. By the time I had tutored my third Calc student I had done a couple of things, first I had learned Calc far better than I had ever learned in class all the way up to Calc IV and I had gotten a reputation of only tuturing really smart girls. ;o) joe -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Milburn Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 1:17 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] salary(OT) I think there are a few types of questions one can ask in list such as this... 1) questions where you have searched for an hour and nothing seems relevant, or there is so much info that it would take days to sort through 2) questions where the sh_t is down hard and what the heck is THIS and you did a cursory search that either turned up nothing useful or info you don't understand how to apply 3) questions where your lack of experience in an area means you just plain don't know how to search or where to start, but if someone would point you in the right direction you'd be happy to do your own research With the above types, I don't think anyone minds those, everyone has been there - and the more _relevant_ details that are provided, the better. 4) questions that can be pasted into a search engine, click I Feel Lucky, and paste the text from the first hit back as a response 5) questions with a subject line that reads, "PLEASE HELP" and a message that says, "what's the syntax for ntdsutil?" 6) questions that are so off-topic, detailed, and irrelevant to most of the list audience's experience as to make people ask, "did I switch to the SQL (or Exchange or C#) list somehow?" These are some of the questions that do become a drain. As long as the questions show you tried to find out yourself, are relevant, and if possible the answers should be relevant to the community, then no one minds questions. That's what the list is for (IMHO). Another thing - when you (referring to no one in particular) ask questions that can be easily researched, you deny yourself two valuable aspects of learning - you learn more when you research it yourself, and you often find related but additional interesting information that helps your overall understanding. There are times I've thought to post a question and decided to look a bit further, and found answers to lots of other things as well that I didn't realize were out there. In IT I firmly believe it's not what you know, but how good you are at research and troubleshooting, that sets you apart. But that's just my opinion. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Rich Milburn MCSE, Microsoft MVP - Directory Services Sr Network Analyst, Field Platform Development Applebee's International, Inc. 4551 W. 107th St Overland Park, KS 66207 913-967-2819 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it." - Pablo Picasso -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP] Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 7:05 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] salary(OT) ...at the same time has the questions asked been of benefit to others on the list? Yes? I find that when I turn into the 'teacher role' in my own SBS community I learn a lot more. It makes me stretch when I have to document 'why' I do the things I do and recommend. I have to google [oh sorry...msn search] or the resources and documentation which makes me learn more. Even with the trolls [the ones that are arguementative trolls but not the stupid trolls], I find that when I'm arguing my point... I'm backing it up with documentation of why I think like that. It helps me to solidify my views. Sometimes even the dumb questions make you dig back into the foundations and think. For me, you lurk, you sit at the feet of the masters and you soak in with the hopes that some of that grey matter will drip on you. Active Directory experts aren't just popped out of the ground, right? And books alone don't cut it right? Some of this [a lot of this] is BTDT credential based, right? [BTDT - been there done that - no greater credential in the world] As a newbie here to this list you will forgive me when I ask the dumb ones, yes? <back to lurking .... oh and ....do you guys take paypal? I may be annoying and ask some more> Tom Kern wrote: > Am I capable? > Who knows? > > I've only been in IT for less than 4 years and I never owned a > computer until 6 years ago. > Everything i learned, i learned from screwing around at > home,books,websites, and most of all, lists like this. > I haven't lied or fluffed up my resume or past in anyway to employers, > so if they are willing to offer me positions, i can only assume i'm > close to capable.... > > I'm 36yrs old and I have a B.A. in English lit from NYU and as i said, > no computer experience until i was about 30. Before IT, i was in grad > school for english and working as a TA at Boston University. > I'm always upfront to employers about all of this. > They hire me and seem to be pleased. > > > As to this list being a question sink, i've been a lurker on this list > for 2yrs and i admit i've sent a deluge of questions latlely, but only > about 10% of them have been about my current position. > The other 90% have just been for my own curiosity. > Thats what happens when you don't know anyone else in your field and > no one at your place of employment is that knowldgable either. > If all i have is some software and a book, sometimes i'd like some > human feed back. > I apologixe for using this list as an endless fountain of info and i > promise to stop. > i know how hard you guys work and i'd love to buy you all a beer and a > shot. > > As to having someone as experienced as you guys over me, I'd love that! > That would be a dream job to apprentince under someone. > Unfortunately, when being offered a job for some $$$ and with 2 kids > at home, I'm not gonna say, "Thats really nice,but despite what you > think,I'm not really that experienced and the fact that after 2 months > of consulting you haven't noticed that, gives me some pause, so I'm > gonna go somewhere else where i can work under someone who knows AD > and can teach me all i want so i can at the very least leave those > poor guys on the activedir list alone...". > I guess if i were in my 20's that would work but right now i can't say no. > > As to leaving you guys be, I'll do my best. > I'm sorry for all the questions. > I'll relax a bit. > > Thanks for everything! > > On 10/13/05, *Brian Desmond* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > *Just a thought for you - Are you really capable of being the lead > engineer in the situation your client and potential employer is > in? This list has been a major question sink for you, and I think > several of us have worked very hard answering all these questions. > One thing you might find from a career & knowledge development > perspective is that you would really benefit from working under > someone who has the in-depth operations experience and AD > knowledge that some of us have here. This list has been your > substitute for that person in my opinion. * > > * * > > **Thanks,*** > **Brian Desmond*** > > ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > **c - 312.731.3132** > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] *On Behalf Of *Tom Kern > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 12, 2005 9:37 PM > *To:* activedirectory > *Subject:* [ActiveDir] salary(OT) > > > > well, i've been consulting for 2 months full time for a company > and now they want to make me an offer to work for them(yeah,i'm > amazed too..) > > At first it was a head/senior AD position but now they want to > throw in Exchange in the mix. > > they used to outsource all their windows infrastructure and during > my tenure there, they took it back so they have no AD/Exchange > people. > > > > This is a 3000 user finanical corp in Manhattan. > > > > my question is, what kind of salary would one expect for a such a > position, taking into account the bussiness and location and size. > > > > > > thanks > > -- Letting your vendors set your risk analysis these days? http://www.threatcode.com List info : http://www.activedir.org/List.aspx List FAQ : http://www.activedir.org/ListFAQ.aspx List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ -------APPLEBEE'S INTERNATIONAL, INC. 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