OK, Al. I said I'm willing to learn and you said you're willing to
teach. So let me ask you what you would do in my place. I ask it
in general terms and hypothetically--I'm not trying to get a freebie
consulting engagement.
So you have 80 workstations, 100 users, 8 servers, Win, Exchange,
SQL server. That's the assets. The constraints: you can spend
maybe $5000 a year on purely backup solutions. If you really raise
a hue and cry, you might be able to get 3-4 times that. [1]
But the budgeting of money is not the show-stopper. The budgeting
of time is the real killer. Figure on having less than half the
time you need, and that includes learning/training. I'm being
generous here.
That's the rules I have to play by. No fair changing the rules. ;o)
BTW, I know nothing about SAN, except by rumor. I was recklessly
speaking above my pay grade.
BTW2, It never occured to me to question your view of the real
world. Your comments and analyses have alway struck me as extremely
sober and to the point. It's just that we are at different levels
of the real world. (how the heck does Susan do it, anyway?)
[1] Keeping in mind that security is putting increasing strain on
the 'protection' resources, and that management and users are far
more concerned with spam and viruses, which they can see, than with
backup, which they hardly ever see.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Al Mulnick <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Sent:* Friday, November 03, 2006 7:29 AM
*Subject:* Re: [ActiveDir] OT - Backup Follies (was) Exchange Log
files --Disk Full--
Yep, I'd have to disagree, but then again, I have a different
perspective. San based connectivity to the files is not something
that *should* be a problem for you. I understand how it could be,
but from my perspective that's a process issue. More
specifically, that's a process issue that is easily solved by
ensuring that you have good controls on your server build process.
Now before you say I don't live in the real world because control
over build configurations is something that's only a dream, let me
point out that I've been doing this for a long time and I'm well
aware of all kinds of processes and thoughts that may or may not
be painful. One such process is not having good solid control on
the server configurations that you accept into your
datacenter/closet. In the case of SAN technology, the use of
HBA's makes it really easy to not care about the drivers. But more
to the point would be having the controls in place to ensure that
everything needed to rebuild/replace that platform is readily
available. If for no other reason than for disaster recovery
purposes.
If that's not the real world for you, I understand that you're not
alone. I also understand the consequences of that behavior all
too well and detest it. I've seen some of the largest enterprises
in the world employ similar "drop and pray" practices for that
behavior. Shops like Susan's likely have it much better.
Don't let drivers and such get in your way to the appropriate
solution for your enterprise is all I'm saying.
On 11/2/06, *Albert Duro* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
Yes, BE does do disk backup. But I have some objections:
A. They don't make it easy, infact they make an unnecessarily
complicated production of it.
B. I started doing NTBackup to disk while (and because) I was
still troubleshooting BE. When I gave up on BE and its
brethren, NTBackup was a natural segway, and already in place
and working.
C. I discovered one great advantage that NTBackup-to-disk has
over any other backup system: with a bit of planning, it is
proof against almost any combination of crash and burn. You
have a backup file on two or more disks/machines. Things
go bad, you can do recovery from any Windows machine; you can
move or copy the backup disks/files to any machine. Try doing
that with a sophisticated tape-based or SAN-based system.
Imagine having to replace the tape drive/autoloader with the
exact same type, while rebuilding a same-hardware three-year
old server to the exact same configuration, same SPs, same
backup software, same drivers. I can guarantee that at least
one of those necessary replacement elements will be impossible
to find, even under leisurely conditions. [1] Yes, there are
strategies to deal with that, but if you could spend that kind
of money, you would have gotten a double-redundant
bullet-proof system in the first place.
I truly hope that I'm wrong out of lack of knowledge and
pessimism. I am open to being corrected and encouraged.
[1] Naturally, the tape drive drivers will be on the same tape
that you can't access nohow. Download the drivers from the
OEM, you say? Chances are excellent that the OEM has gone out
of business, or sold out to a giant who prunes out what they
don't like (and what you need), or changed the name or version
number on it out of sheer orneryness. If you do get to what
looks like the right drivers, you're likely to find that the
last minor upgrade version that really worked well for you has
been dropped, or tweaked into your trouble zone. I can
testify to ALL these experiences. I think others can too.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Al Mulnick <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 02, 2006 3:27 PM
*Subject:* Re: [ActiveDir] OT - Backup Follies (was)
Exchange Log files --Disk Full--
Trying to remember exactly, but doesn't BE have an option
to use disk vs. tape drives?
You *could* run a test to help simplify and rule out some
of the complexity. Could take a while, but might be
worth it.
Al
On 11/2/06, *Albert Duro* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
Why does NTBackup work for me and BE not, when they
are at core the same product?
I wondered about that too. Here are my thoughts.
First, NTBackup is a simpler product that doesn't get
tangled up with the complexities of scheduling and a
GUI.
But the real reason, I think, is that I've been doing
NTBackups to disk, while BE was to tape.
I've always suspected that most, if not all of my
difficulties with BE had to do with the drivers for
the tape drives and autoloaders, and with the SCSI
interface to other devices ('other' being anything
beyond the normal HD and CD complement)
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Al Mulnick <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 01, 2006 6:11 AM
*Subject:* Re: [ActiveDir] Exchange Log files
--Disk Full--
Well put Albert. Thanks for that feedback.
What still has me curious is why BE wouldn't work
in your environment and why ntbackup does
(partially at least). ntbackup as written by the
same exact people and has a lot of the same code
(it's licensed by Microsoft from Seagate last I
checked). Ntbackup is the less featured version
designed for single host backups and extended to
act like it does more.
So that said, I agree that the goal is that your
client's data is backed up. I have to say that I
disagree that jury-rigs, mickey mouse and by the
seat of your pants is the long term solution
though. That's an infrastructure component that
will come back to haunt at some point down the
road. As an interim fix, of course it can work.
I'm not blinded by the big vendors to the point
that I think they have the only solution. Far
from it. But I like to think that I can at least
share some perspective and experience related to
where it leads and I definitely favor technology
over layer8 processes. Why? Because layer8
changes and grows out of current positions and
foundational solutions should not have to be
decimated when that happens. I've seen that way
too often to care to see it continue where
possible.
Basically, I hate to see a foundational solution
such as backup, rely on such complexity and human
intervention. I completely understand that you
have to do what you have to do. When you wrote it
in your original email, it sounded like you
approved of that method. Reading this last one, I
can you don't. I was just trying to point out
where that leads and trying to understand how you
go there. I bet I would have gotten there the
same way you did ;)
Best of luck getting that worked out.
If you need anything from me, please don't
hesitate. I have been known to make some backup
solutions work :) Feel free to ping off-line if I
can be of any help.
On 10/31/06, *Albert Duro*
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
Al, since you ask, no I don't see it
differently, at least not at the oratorical
level. But where the rubber meets the road,
things can look very different. Like the
military say, the best laid plan falls apart
the moment it meets the enemy. You assume
that I monkey around with Ntbackup and balky
media for economic reasons. In fact, we
spared no expense (relative to our small size)
to put in industrial-strength backup systems,
both software and hardware. Even paid
consultants to set it up and manage it.
It blew up in our faces. Primarily because
Backup Exec just wouldn't work right in our
environment. (I'm not saying that BE isn't a
fine product, it would just never work for
us). Why not? Don't know -- I couldn't
figure it out. Our consultants couldn't
figure it out. Veritas support couldn't
either, nor the autoloader manufacturer. For
more than two years, nobody could figure it
out, until I decided to stop throwing good
money after bad.
Did I try alternative products? In the same
class, yes -- more tales of woe, but different
reasons. We did not nor are we going to buy
the high-end systems, which cost more than our
whole network is worth.
So I was left with NTBackup, and admittedly a
little more gun-shyness about brand-name
backup products than is strictly rational.
That's what I have to work with, and I try to
make the best of it. That's the 'real world'
in my little corner of it.
Believe me, when you and joe and others on
this list urge us to 'make the best', I
listen, I learn, and I applaud. And it does
push me in that direction. But the only path
there goes through 'make the best of
what you've got'. It's bumpy and often
barricaded.
But after all is said and done, the REAL point
is that I am preserving my clients' data and
keeping them happy. Jury-rigs, mickey mouse,
and by-the-pants not withstanding.
-- Original Message -----
*From:* Al Mulnick
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Sent:* Sunday, October 29, 2006 4:30 AM
*Subject:* Re: [ActiveDir] Exchange Log
files --Disk Full--
sub-optimal media are part of the real
world?
Wow, thanks :)
Truth be told, that's a rant of mine.
I've heard a lot (lately especially) about
how we want to do things cheap and
inexpensive and we'll fix it later and so
on. I've also spent a great deal of time
cleaning up that kind of stuff.
Unfortunately, once it escapes into the
"real world" then it becomes more
difficult to clean up because you have to
do so in front of customers/clients.
Interesting approach though. Usually a
less disciplined from what I've seen and
often results in more expense related to
downtime and troubleshooting and lack of
service. I'm interested if you see
differently though.
This area of the business fascinates
me....
On 10/28/06, *Albert Duro*
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
I'm sure you and Susan are right. All
I'm saying is that it *can* happen,
and for me, why take the chance when
one-job/one-task is easy to do.
Good point about the media, and that
may explain my case, but, hey,
sub-optimal media situations are part
of the real world.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Al Mulnick
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2006
6:33 AM
*Subject:* Re: [ActiveDir]
Exchange Log files --Disk Full--
I've not had that same
experience. Granted, it's a
limited feature utility (note the
use of the word utility vs. tool
as requested) but it's still
capable of doing more. There were
some fixes to ntbackup in service
packs and such. You might want to
verify you're using the latest
version of that's what you see.
Also, check the media it's headed
to. It's error handling is not
very elegant, but I've found it to
be useful and strong enough to
stand up to some complex tasks in
the past. I've got several running
now via cli that have been in
place for more than half a year
without issue (I know, I know,
spend all that money on an
enterprise backup system only to
backup some machines locally. But
there are times when it makes more
sense, trust me.)
-ajm
On 10/27/06, *Albert Duro*
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
wrote:
I've found, with NTbackup,
that if you cram two or more
tasks into a backup job, it's
very likely to fail. For
example, if you do a System
State and a file backup and an
Exchange backup in the same
job. It's best to separate
each task into its own job,
and sort it out in the
scheduling.
A mixed job will also work for
a while and then fail, which
sounds like what happened to
OP.
----- Original Message
-----
*From:* Wells, James
Arthur
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:*
ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Cc:* Technical Support
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*Sent:* Thursday, October
26, 2006 2:21 PM
*Subject:* RE: [ActiveDir]
Exchange Log files --Disk
Full--
Do you have multiple
information stores on this
storage group? (If using
Exchange Enterprise
edition)...the logs can't
flush until all stores
have a full backup,
because the logs are
shared...
--James
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]
*On Behalf Of *Technical
Support
*Sent:* Thursday, October
26, 2006 3:16 PM
*To:*
ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>;
ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Subject:* RE: [ActiveDir]
Exchange Log files --Disk
Full--
Hi,
I am running Normal
Backup. Using NTBackup
Utility. Backing up
Information store.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
on behalf of Missy Koslosky
*Sent:* Thu 10/26/2006
12:49 PM
*To:*
ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Subject:* RE: [ActiveDir]
Exchange Log files --Disk
Full--
Are you running full (AKA
normal) backups every
night? It seems not. Use
NTBackup to backup to disk
(obviously, you'll need a
disk with over 120GB of
available space) and then
use whatever normal
program you use to back
that backup onto tape.
This will keep you running
until you sort out why
your normal backup
software isn't flushing
the logs when the backup
completes.
How are you currently
running backups? What
software is in use? Are
you sure it's Exchange
aware? Are you doing brick
level backups or copy
backups instead of a full
backup? Neither will flush
the logs.
I'd resolve this as
quickly as possible,
because if you are in a
situation where you have
to replay the logs, you're
NOT going to be a happy
camper.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]
*On Behalf Of *Technical
Support
*Sent:* Thursday, October
26, 2006 11:09 AM
*To:*
ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org
<mailto:ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org>
*Subject: *[ActiveDir]
Exchange Log files --Disk
Full--
Hi All,
Kindly suggest, what i can
do about my Exchange Log
files?
I have about 120 GB Log
files for past 4 months. I
have a few doubts:-
Do i really need all those
log files?
If yes, Then how is it
possible to manage with
this as i have a very
limited space left.
Can i delete these log
files?
Backup doesnt remove these
log files?
i am really running out of
space on my Exchange log
storage drive.
*Thanks!!!*
Ravi
