Re: 'I'm certain you've had thoughts in your day that the other guy had no idea you were harboring.'
But this does not affect my point at all. Whether I say out loud what I am thinking is beside the point. RE: '> Second -- I said rock-climbers, chefs, chess-players, even tennis-players are > thinking all the time, just not with words. I' How do you know this? On the rare occasions I play chess, I am not aware of having wordless thoughts. Ditto for the others. RE: 'Your question about "forms" is a red herring. What is the form of > mental > images? Mental images. What is the form of feelings? Feelings. When you > finally > acknowledge that thoughts always exist before the words are found to express > them, you'll perhaps agree that the answer to the question "What is the form > of thoughts?" is. . .thoughts.' No it's not a red herring. It is the nub of the matter. Feelings certainly do have form. (That's what they achieve most fully in art). And your last line here doesn't help. You are simply re-asserting that thoughts can exist formlesssly - ie without any form of embodiment. Re: 'I then begin the time-consuming task of "putting them into words". But I think you are confusing the physicall aspect of the matter - the time it takes to write things down etc - with the theoretical issue at stake. The mind works at such speed we can ignore the physical aspect - this is not a matter one solves by introspection. Re: '> It's interesting that in the thousands of words contributed to this thread by > me, Mando, and Brady you have not seen a single point you agreed with, and > nothing you acknowledge you hadn't thought of.' But I disagree with the *basic* point at issue, and that's what I've been concentrating on. I think it is a common delusion that we have wordless thoughts. And that leads to various misundertandings - like the idea that we are really all Dostoyoevskys manques (which i mentioned in my last). That illusion is worth unmasking, which is what i have been atempting to do. DA > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 9:12 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wrote: > 'Then how does the writer know when the words he's mulling do not articulate > his thought? Obviously the thought already has to be there.' > > Derek responds: > > "But in what form could the idea even *exist* if you deny it language - or > for the painter colour etc, or for the composer, sounds. > > "The same goes for everyday thoughts: how could we - including the thinker - > know what the thought is if is not expressed in any way. What could give it > form?" > > If you'd tried to respond to the six challenges in #2 on wordless thoughts, > it's pretty to think you wouldn't be putting this question. > > First off, I'd hope you see that what "WE know" about another person's > thought has no impact on whether or not he has a thought. I'm certain you've > had > thoughts in your day that the other guy had no idea you were harboring. > > Second -- I said rock-climbers, chefs, chess-players, even tennis-players are > thinking all the time, just not with words. I could expand endlessly that > list of people who usually are thinking about things without putting their > thoughts into words. You continually confuse thought and the expression of the > thought. Your question about "forms" is a red herring. What is the form of > mental > images? Mental images. What is the form of feelings? Feelings. When you > finally > acknowledge that thoughts always exist before the words are found to express > them, you'll perhaps agree that the answer to the question "What is the form > of thoughts?" is. . .thoughts. > > I wrote: > "And how do you accommodate the fact that some writers do NOT struggle? A > thought comes to them, and they immediately "jot it down". As I'm writing the > short paragraphs you're now reading, these thoughts are coming to me in effect > instantly. I then begin the time-consuming task of "putting them into words". > > Derek responds: > "Very simply. The ideas we are expressing are relatively > straightforward. So the words come easily." > > Yes they do -- AFTER I have the thought. It's disheartening to see that Derek > left out the last sentence in that quote above (I reinserted it) plus the > words immediately following that quote. Here they are: > > " Look at my two-line paragraph above beginning, "Then how doesb&" I knew > instantly what I wanted to "say". Finding the word to say it took time. I > mulled > the words 'mulling', and 'articulate'. "Will they convey what's on my mind?" I > asked myself. The "what's on my mind" was already there." > > I wrote: > "How conceivably could he be searching for words unless he already knew what > he wanted them to say?" > > Derek responds: > "Again, how could he *have* the thought if you deny him in form to have it > in? It would have to be a kind of 'contentless' thought. Shades of Zen." > > It's interesting to watch great athletes play, to see how they "know" exactly > what they want to do trick a defender, how instantly their "thinking" changes > when another defender comes into range. The idea that they have to articulate > their plan in words or it's a contentless thought is ludicrous. > > Derek ends: > "I know you have made more points but as i said I don't like to do long > posts." > > It's interesting that in the thousands of words contributed to this thread by > me, Mando, and Brady you have not seen a single point you agreed with, and > nothing you acknowledge you hadn't thought of. > > I close with a word of praise for that under-appreciated item, the thesaurus. > I almost never reach for it to find a synonym. Their greatest value for me is > their gathering in juxtaposition words for related but not identical notions. > Often I have a specific nuance of notion I want to articulate. I can think of > words that come close but aren't right. So I go to the thesaurus and wade > around in allied entries. Ah! There it is -- that expresses this thought I > have! > > > > > ************** > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family > favorites at AOL Food. > > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) > > -- Derek Allan http://www.home.netspeed.com.au/derek.allan/default.htm
