I don't recall my saying that there's a good alternative to the economic system 
called capitalism.  However, with any really good system of wealth 
disrtribution, some overarching ethical and moral concept has to be obliged. 
 But the inherent concept of capitalism ignores and atually discredits that 
idea 
of an overarching morality.  It relies on the Adam Smith slogan "The Invisible 
Hand" which is ultimately a bogus concept because at some point -- I don't know 
where -- capital acculumlates at a rate beyond any structured mode of 
distribution can handle.  The recent "too big to fail" ideology is proof that 
the Invisible Hand does not function at the top end of wealth accumulation.  

As for the equality idea the traditional division of it is to separate equality 
of condition from equality of opportunity, even though its' difficult to 
actually do that in practice.  We like to say that all people have some kinds 
of 
equality of condition, such as the right to live and we often say that there 
are 
some sorts of equality of opportunity for everyone, as in the U.S. Bill of 
Rights: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. However, we all know that 
America has from time to time  enshrined restrictions of both equality of 
condition and that in itself has restricted equality of opportunity stipulated 
by the Bill of Rights.

Cheerskep is talking, below, about the equality of opportunity, specifically 
the 
opportunity to be in the right place at the right time with the right abilities 
and the right ambitions to build a successful business and earn a lot of money. 
 One could say, with large blinders, that the success he mentions was due only 
to hard work and ability but take away the blinders and look closer.  How many 
of the publishing folks he mentions were from the rural deep south, or were 
minorities, or had spotty educations or, most of all, lacked connections and 
networking benefits that were already in place for them when they began.  In 
other words, some inequality existed not only where it always does, in 
opportunity, but also in condition and that's been the rub in American culture 
for a very long time whren it comes to wealth distribution. 

America has come to despise the old fashioned sense of morality and ethics, the 
real and visible hand, when it comes to the implementation of capitalist 
economics. Now it's proper to only follow the money, care about the money, 
ignore values that any society needs, and claim that unfettered self-interest 
is 
the only true and impartial way to manage wealth.  The Founding Fathers valued 
Virtue as the highest good.  For them it meant self-deprecation and service for 
the greater good: putting the other fellow's need above self-interest.  Some 
actually tried to follow that principle and they certainly framed a 
Constitution 
that aimed at embodying it.

What people need to do in my opinion is to recognize that their positions in 
life are not only due to their own diligence but also the structures the 
society 
has in place.  Those structures favor inequality in both opportunity and 
condition. 

I'll venture that all the people on this list have enjoyed a much greater 
proportion of inequality of condition and opportunity than most Americans.  Our 
duty is to help create greater equality of opportunity for those who don't yet 
have their proper share and then assure them more and more improvement in their 
conditions. That's not a difficult moral concept to hold but very difficult to 
practice.  It's always the folks in secure positions of opprtunity and 
condition 
who persist in telling others less fortunate to work harder and pull themselves 
up by their bootstraps.  To me that's just self-adulation.  Very human.  I'm 
guiltier than most in that respect.  But I know what ought to be.

wc


----- Original Message ----
From: saulostrow <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, August 21, 2012 12:03:10 PM
Subject: Re: Subjective - Objective

exceptions to the rules - such as the vast accumulation of wealth in the
face of poverty is the very abnormally that has  justifies capitalism's
irrational drive to monopoly and poverty.

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 12:18 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

> As the phrase goes, William, I know "where you're coming from" when you and
> Saul express your bleak views about equality and the effects of capitalism
> -- but I personally can't share those views.
>
> I won't try to lampoon the phrase, "We are all created equal," because it's
> nonsense when made categoric -- nor is it even desirable. "We are all equal
> in the eyes of the law," seems something worth striving for to the extent
> we can -- and we can succeed to some degree over time. But that we should
> all
> be born equally tall, fast, smart, musical, handsome, etc. -- that's not
> only hilariously impossible, it seems to me to have the makings of a
> horrible
> science fiction tale.
>
> As for capitalism's being a hideous system that will always be corruptly
> unfair, it hasn't seemed so to me.   If you devise something of
> benefit/pleasure to loads of people, you have a chance to become -- what?
> -- will very
> rich do it? If you disdain Bill Gates or Steve Jobs I don't think it can be
> because of the products they've given us. And that they should be highly
> rewarded does not seem wrong to me.
>
> I went to work in a small, failing book publishing house in New York.
> Eventually, by pursuing a novel strategy -- with a group of gifted,
> long-working
> people -- it became a big house. A handful of that group none of who came
> from rich families -- are now millionaires. They didn't cheat or crush
> anyone.
> They did nothing they need to be ashamed of. Just the opposite: they
> pleased many readers and authors around the world. Can some tactics of
> capitalists
> be odious? Sure. But to feel the whole system is inevitably evil feels
> wrong to me.
>
>


-- 
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