Definitely worth asking about.
They have done unmetered service here in the past for CATV amps, but I think 
NYSEG told us they aren't doing any new ones.

-----Original Message-----
From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Chris Fabien
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:52 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

The term that got us cheap power was "unmetered CATV power supply".
They allow connection of a fixed capacity power supply unit with no meter, just 
a small disconnect and drop a 120V 10AWG service and bill us based on half of 
the power supply's nameplate capacity.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 3:45 PM Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com> wrote:
>
> Some places have what is called a “street light tariff” that is about as low 
> as you can get.
>
>
>
> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:38 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
> I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be 
> cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design 
> around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we 
> only get a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And 
> obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that 
> on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of 
> panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be 
> allowed to put on a utility pole.
>
>
>
> Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain 
> what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.
>
> NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let 
> us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the 
> pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an 
> outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let 
> you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow 
> it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) 
> so it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A 
> service entrance cable.
>
>
>
> My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then, 
> but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable 
> company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today 
> you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let you 
> do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve 
> run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, 
> or when the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for 
> the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all fine reasons, 
> but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Steve Jones
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our 
> own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they 
> decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the 
> customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something we 
> can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast. So 
> Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of 
> batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs losing 
> the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain 
> them and the benefit gained per pole
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster <i...@wirelessmapping.com> 
> wrote:
>
> How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than 
> the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them 
> in series and not have to deal with the converter.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
>
>
>
>
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
> dmmoff...@gmail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> *You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.
>
> Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
> realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <dmmoff...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com>
> Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> You can do the whole thing in Watts.
>
>
>
> 12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours
>
> 1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours
>
>
>
> If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
> 0.95).
>
> There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
> temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should 
> be drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A 
> fuse like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure 
> the amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.
>
>
>
> And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
> some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing 
> lower amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.
>
>
>
> Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
> of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
> toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Steve Jones
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
> Subject: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Just trying to cipher runtimes
>
> I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.
>
> Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the math 
> correct here?
>
> 12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
> 1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
> 50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps 37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 
> hours runtime
>
>
>
> does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?
>
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