Are we still talking about noise or about spectrum allocation?
Requesting channels from the SAS will not be staus quo, that will be
very different from how we operate today.
Right now I'm having trouble with another operator's wimax system. It's
an industrial automation system so they're using a 50/50 TDD ratio
(incompatible with ours). Their consultant advised them that they could
use small channel sizes to avoid interfering with us, but they're
insistent on using 10mhz channels. For some of our base stations, the
noise in the NN portion of the band is already as bad as you're
saying.....and I really have no recourse.
These guys are happy getting kilobits of throughput some of the time, so
the fact that we interfere with each other is not really important to
them. I'd hope that Verizon or ATT has more incentive to figure
something out.
When you're saying they could fall back on another band, are you saying
they'd build 3.65 in our area and then spend the money to swap eNB for a
different band? We're in rural areas, so I'm hoping they won't build in
our area at all because they'd rather build their 5G stuff in a dense
urban area and use their lower frequencies out in the woods.
I could be wrong. I don't know what runs through their heads.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Radabaugh" <m...@amplex.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 7/22/2017 8:12:49 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Be careful with 3650 (was CBRS in trouble)
Do you really think Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobil, Comcast, and
Charter actually care about keeping the spectrum quiet? The first 4
all have licensed spectrum to fall back on if the CBRS portion isn’t
working. For the cell companies it’s a bonus if 3.65 works, but they
are not going to be upset if their noise knocks your gear offline.
And when you complain about the noise the test is going to be “is it
louder than -80dB at 1.5m off the ground with no antenna gain”. Also
- that spec is based on 10Mhz channels. At 20Mhz wide channels it’s
-70dB. The spectrum is going to get loud.
WinnForum is very much of the opinion that the SAS has complete command
and control of the GAA spectrum. You only get spectrum under some
definition of fair allocation that the SAS is going to decide. It’s
not codified status quo - it’s mother may I - and the SAS isn’t going
to tell you who is keeping you from getting a spectrum allocation as
they consider it proprietary.
Mark
On Jul 21, 2017, at 10:59 PM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I'm not sure whether that rule matters. Everyone has the same
incentive to avoid interference with each other as they did before.
Right now if we interfere with each other there's no recourse. Sounds
like that'll still be the case. Codified status quo.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Radabaugh" <m...@amplex.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 7/21/2017 4:49:37 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Be careful with 3650 (was CBRS in trouble)
I urge ALL of you using 3.65 gear to pay very close attention to what
the definition of power level at the edge of a SAS is - it is a whole
lot louder than many of you are thinking about. The actual
document is here:
https://www.fcc.gov/document/35-ghz-order-recon-and-2nd-ro
Pay very close attention to this, and the examples in the appendix.
(d) Received Signal Strength Limits:
(1) For both Priority Access and GAA users, CBSD transmissions must
be managed such that the aggregate received signal strength for all
locations within the PAL Protection Area of any co-channel PAL, shall
not exceed an average (RMS) power level of -80 dBm in any direction
when integrated over a 10 megahertz reference bandwidth, with the
measurement antenna placed at a height of 1.5 meters above ground
level, unless the affected PAL licensees agree to an alternative
limit and communicate that to the SAS.
The standard is -80dBM/10Mhz approximately 5’ off the ground measured
by a UNITY GAIN antenna. This frequency is going to be LOUD. If
you are used to deploying with 20dBi gain antennas this means the
interference signal can appear to you as if it was -60dB and still be
perfectly legitimate.
At the same time your base stations at 200’ with 16dBi gain antennas
that are looking toward a PAL boundary are likely to see -64dB of
noise or much higher if the PAL is calculating the -80dB by taking
into account terrain, while your base station at 200’ is has clear
line of sight to the other transmitter.
I’m very concerned that many of you are installing NLOS services and
counting on being able to continue to provide service use extremely
low signal levels. I routinely see posts of people installing LTE
customers at very low signal levels. This is not going to continue
to work well when the base station is faced with significant noise.
Mark
Mark Radabaugh
WISPA FCC Committee Chair
fcc_ch...@wispa.org
419-261-5996
On Jul 21, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists
<jeffl...@att.net> wrote:
The way it's structured right now, the 50MHz we are using now, and
the top 30MHz of the CBRS band will all be GA. The bottom 70MHz of
CBRS is set aside for PALs. Currently they are to be auctioned off
by census tract for 5 years, with one renewal option. That's what
WISPA fought for, and that's what we are trying to protect.
Jeff Broadwick
ConVergence Technologies, Inc.
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@converge-tech.com
On Jul 21, 2017, at 3:26 PM, Mathew Howard <mhoward...@gmail.com>
wrote:
My understanding is that GA availability would be dependant on
what's actually in use... so you would still be able to use it in
an area where someone holds a PAL, but hasn't actually deployed
anything. Of course if the entire 150mhz is auctioned off as PALs,
there's always going to be the possibility that the PAL holders are
going to come along and turn on some new towers in an area where
you have a ton of GA stuff deployed, and the your whole network is
suddenly gone... with no realistic way to fix it.
But yeah, if the PALs are covering an entire PEA, none of us little
guys are going to end up with any.
On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Adam Moffett
<dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
Review:
The previously adopted rules split the 150mhz of the 3.5ghz band
into a general availability (GA) section and a 70mhz wide Priority
Access License (PAL) section. PAL licenses are to be auctioned
per census tract, and have a 3 year license term. At the end of
3 years you can renew once, for a total of 6 years, (After that I
believe they go back for another auction, but I don't recall).
The GA section is administered by an automated Spectrum Access
System (SAS), and any frequencies in your census tract not used by
a PAL are available for GA use.
CTIA proposal:
The CTIA suggests that the PAL license term be 10 years and that
they should have an expectation of being able to renew them. They
also suggest that licenses be granted for a PEA rather than a
census tract. PEA's are gigantic
(https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-14-759A4.pdf
<https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-14-759A4.pdf>).
Their justification for the license term of 10 years is that
mobile deployments may not see a return on investment in 3 years.
The justification for guaranteed renewal is that it will
encourage investment in the band. The justification for PEA's
instead of census tracts it that it's easier for them. For all
three points they also point out that these changes would be more
consistent with how current licensing works (for them).
T-Mobile proposal:
T-Mobile suggests everything the CTIA suggests, but further
suggests that the entire 150mhz become PAL, with GA use only
allowed opportunistically where a PAL has not been granted.
T-Mobile goes on to suggest changes in the channel selection and
bidding process consistent with their proposal of having the whole
band auctioned off, and a few technical points such as less
restrictive OOB emissions rules.
My take:
The expectation under the current rules is that big carriers will
bid on PAL's for census tracts in dense areas where they need more
small cell deployments, but rural tracts will go for a couple
hundred dollars each. If they get the right to bid on a PAL in an
entire PEA, then we won't get any. They'll bid on our PEA because
of the cities contained in our PEA, and we'll never outbid them.
The CTIA proposal and the T-Mobile proposal are dated just a few
days apart, and T-Mobile is a member of the CTIA. So I assume
they're asking dad for a Lamborghini so they can settle for the
Corvette.
It might be ok ONLY if the GA availability is dependent on where
they are deployed and not simply where they hold a license. If I
can still use the whole 150mhz in small town USA because big
carriers are not going to build 3.5ghz out in the woods where they
already have sufficient spectrum in 800mhz, 2.5ghz, etc; THEN I'd
be happy enough.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mathew Howard" <mhoward...@gmail.com>
To: "af" <af@afmug.com>
Sent: 7/21/2017 11:03:13 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CBRS in trouble
I didn't read through the whole thing, but from what I got
skimming through it, it sounds like they basically want PALs to
be auctioned for the entire 150mhz, instead of the current 70mhz
they're limited to, and they want a single entity to be allowed
to hold more PALs... and some changes to the licensing structure
to make it a bit more like traditional licenses. It probably
wouldn't change much in areas out in the middle of nowhere, that
the big companies don't have much interest in, but in some areas,
I would imagine you'd end up with the three biggest cell carriers
in the area snapping up all the PALs, making the entire band
essentially non-existent for the rest of us.
Their statement that there won't be enough investment in the band
without those changes is pretty obviously nonsense, since there's
already plenty of gear that will operate in the band available...
and the new system isn't even online yet.
On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 4:04 PM, Adam Moffett
<dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
Trying to find time to read the whole NPRM before making an
opinion, but it does sound bad.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Dave" <dmilho...@wletc.com>
To: "Animal Farm" <af@afmug.com>
Sent: 7/20/2017 4:39:18 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] CBRS in trouble
Anyone else doing this
http://files.constantcontact.com/d4d6cd6a501/40256872-b6da-4840-b79d-61e111535347.pdf
<http://files.constantcontact.com/d4d6cd6a501/40256872-b6da-4840-b79d-61e111535347.pdf>
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