Following this to-and-fro... Ben Freeman, for all your intelligence you seem to be making much of a concept that is usually considered elementary within not only complex systems analysis and design (Checkland), but also information systems engineering.
Within systems thinking, Permutation is a given. So is combination. No matter how you view permutation, there should exist a scientific methodology for deriving meaning from the individual parts, the permutation(s), combination(s), and collective outcomes(s). Furthermore, extending the method to include systemic ecology, behavior, and all issues of boundary, scalability, and so on. I suppose then, the whole. Permutation and Combination relate to the notions of systemic robustness, integration, and so on. I'm sure you know this off by heart. Now, given the best design, once one starts struggling with computational tools to try and implement the most-elegant design, what I cant get is why a simple piece of code (or what should've been a simple piece of code), becomes the eventual Mt. Everest one must cross. That is why implementation is so hard, no matter the beauty of any design. One is dependent on the inherent "brilliance" of the developer of that tool. Is that why we're always looking for better tools? But tools take us to the domain of architecture, and all its ramifications. Where design architecture and tool architecture meet up, that is an interesting prospect. But, design method also serves as a tool of architecture, and should probably carry equal weight in engineering solutions. In my view, to increase the probability of success, one must always be willing to throw away work one had done, which is not achieving the quality result, instead of trying to find ever-clever ways to force a round peg into a square hole. In my opinion, few would do so. I think this may be what you've been trying to do in this discussion; trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. If I may suggest, perhaps stepping back to consider if the personal tone of your conversation is justified on the hand of the topic and content, or perhaps your personal frustration alone. I hope to see more constructive interaction. Would you take your discussion to the next level? Perhaps, start giving an example of your perspective on permutation (systems order) that you claim is so different. I can't see it either, but I'm curious enough to want to see it. There must be another concept in combination you're not telling us. Regards Robert Benjamin ________________________________ From: Linas Vepstas <linasveps...@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, 26 February 2019 6:18 AM To: AGI Subject: Re: [agi] The future of AGI On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 9:04 PM Rob Freeman <chaotic.langu...@gmail.com<mailto:chaotic.langu...@gmail.com>> wrote: OK, it looks like you are not going to see it, so it is pointless to insist. You appear to be quite close, so it was worth a try. But as an aside. One point of fact: On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 3:16 PM Linas Vepstas <linasveps...@gmail.com<mailto:linasveps...@gmail.com>> wrote: On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 4:06 PM Rob Freeman <chaotic.langu...@gmail.com<mailto:chaotic.langu...@gmail.com>> wrote: ... Certainly everybody was stumbling at this step in the '90s, by the likes of David Powers and Hinrich Schuetze trying to learn To the best of my knowledge, exactly zero people have ever done this before, or anything remotely like it. Not even a little bit close. So excuse me. You mean you have no knowledge of attempts at distributional learning of grammar from the '90s? Sure. Yes, I suppose I mean that. Is there something you can recommend? Should I just google David Powers and Hinrich Schuetze and start reading randomly, or is there something particularly juicey that I should look at? -- Linas -- cassette tapes - analog TV - film cameras - you Artificial General Intelligence List<https://agi.topicbox.com/latest> / AGI / see discussions<https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi> + participants<https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/members> + delivery options<https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription> Permalink<https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/Ta6fce6a7b640886a-Mff8169ba4a84a73753cc07d6> ------------------------------------------ Artificial General Intelligence List: AGI Permalink: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/Ta6fce6a7b640886a-Mc66da25d93a1324fd2311259 Delivery options: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription
