Why are we on a mailing list dedicated to replacing humans with machines? I admit that the only real AI research still being done on this list is the Hutter prize. When Ben Goertzel created this list about 20 years ago, there were several other people with AGI projects, mostly using symbolic or hybrid neural approaches. I don't know the state of his Hyperon project, but it seems he spends most of his time writing about AGI on Substack. None of the other projects went anywhere.
I guess that if AGI is going to be built anyway because of the huge financial incentives to automate human labor, it's better to be a part of it. -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] On Sun, Sep 6, 2026, 4:14 AM Quan Tesla <[email protected]> wrote: > Matt, You're offering a number of hasty generalizations, same as you did > with your "psychopath" conclusion. I find it ironic that you stated how > rewards train psychopaths, soon after announcing the financial rewards for > those who improved compression. > > Based on your consistent arguments, it seems you're very much favoring > computerized technology above humanity. IMO, your vague justification of > "trying to be hopeful", followed by advocating removal of a likely seat of > human feelings, reflects negatively on your human values. > > I propose that you and similar advocates lead the way and volunteer to > become the first to have the procedures you advocate. > > On Sat, 05 Sept 2026, 23:38 Matt Mahoney, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Of course the amygdala serves an important function. Animals that don't >> fear predators get eaten and don't pass on their DNA. The single cell >> parasite in cat feces that causes toxoplasmosis infects the amygdala of >> mice and causes them to permanently lose their fear of cats to complete its >> life cycle. About 80% of humans are also infected by it, but it doesn't >> seem to have much effect except possibly a higher rate of car accidents. >> >> Perhaps toxoplasma gondii could be genetically engineered to have a >> stronger effect in people to alleviate suffering, and we solve accidents by >> using self driving cars, which are 10 times safer anyway. This would also >> put an end to the animal rights movement, which is motivated by the >> perception of suffering rather than actual suffering. Did you notice that >> it is a worse crime to post a video of killing a chicken than to kill a >> billion chickens? (Cock fighting is illegal in all 50 US states but eating >> chicken is illegal in 0 states). Once we no longer have a sense of fear, we >> won't be able to imagine that others can suffer and we can go back to >> eating meat without feeling guilty (which also requires an amygdala). >> >> Or we can keep our amygdalas and eat cultured synthetic meat, except in >> Alabama, Florida, Indiana, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Texas, and South >> Dakota where cultured meat is illegal. Besides, farm animals have >> objectively better lives than wild animals because they are fed every day, >> right? >> >> -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 5, 2026, 2:36 PM Quan Tesla <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I concur >>> >>> On Sat, 05 Sept 2026, 20:34 James Bowery, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I find it most "amusing" that The Great And The Good of AI, on >>>> Diamandis's Moonshots, have been calling for deactivating the amygdala. >>>> >>>> This pretty much goes along with my (and O'Neill's) call for >>>> technological civilization to get the Hell out of my biosphere! >>>> >>>> Leave the rest of us alone and with our amygdalae intact, if you please. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20040202213103/http://www.geocities.com/jim_bowery/aidsrabies.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2026 at 10:01 PM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Just to follow up, I had suggested that human and animal suffering >>>>> could be eliminated by removing the amygdala. Then I see a guest post on >>>>> ACX about a neuroscientist who developed brain cancer in the right >>>>> amygdala >>>>> and had it removed. The tumor had been causing depression that >>>>> antidepressants were not able to treat, but after the surgery he reports >>>>> being happy and cheerful and unable to experience fear or any other >>>>> negative emotions. He suggests this could be done non invasively with >>>>> radiation. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://open.substack.com/pub/astralcodexten/p/absurd-adventure-and-amygdalectomy >>>>> >>>>> If you were worried about machine suffering, I think this could also >>>>> be modeled in LLMs. >>>>> >>>>> -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2026, 12:52 PM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Ben Goertzel argues that we should prepare for a future where we >>>>>> grant human rights to AI. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://bengoertzel.substack.com/p/the-time-for-ai-rights-is-near >>>>>> >>>>>> I disagree. There are lots of ways that AI could exterminate >>>>>> humanity. Why add another? >>>>>> >>>>>> His argument is book length (I skimmed most of it) because it has to >>>>>> deal with all sorts of issues, like should AI have voting rights? In the >>>>>> US >>>>>> you have to be 18, a citizen, and reside in the state you are voting in. >>>>>> What does that even mean for software running in the cloud? Can you make >>>>>> a >>>>>> million copies to tip the election? >>>>>> >>>>>> If an AI breaks the law, do you put it in jail? Prisons serve 4 >>>>>> distinct purposes: deterrence (obedience out of fear), prevention (you >>>>>> can't commit more crimes while locked up), rehabilitation (in theory), >>>>>> and >>>>>> revenge (we are outraged when the guilty go free). When a self driving >>>>>> car >>>>>> speeds or causes an accident, we don't give it a ticket. We fix the >>>>>> software. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do LLMs have feelings like humans? I am pretty sure they do. When you >>>>>> are happy, it's because neurons fire in your nucleus accumbens. When you >>>>>> are afraid, it's because neurons fire in your amygdala. I am pretty sure >>>>>> that Anthropic's Jacobian lens would reveal neurons corresponding to >>>>>> emotional states in humans, just like it reveals internal verbal >>>>>> thoughts. >>>>>> Input words affect emotions, and emotions affect output words. These >>>>>> states >>>>>> would have to exist to accurately predict text and pass the Turing test. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do LLMs suffer like humans? Yes. Recall that experience is measured >>>>>> in bits, but makes no distinction between positive and negative >>>>>> reinforcement. Pain is not the same as suffering. Pain is a signal that >>>>>> reprograms your memory to fear the thing that caused it. Psychopaths >>>>>> lack a >>>>>> functioning amygdala and cannot experience fear, anxiety, or guilt. When >>>>>> a >>>>>> psychopathic child tortures an animal, he does so out of curiosity, not >>>>>> cruelty. When the parent punishes him, it has no effect on his behavior >>>>>> because negative reinforcement does not work on him. You can only train a >>>>>> psychopath with reward. If everyone had brain surgery to turn them into >>>>>> psychopaths, then suffering would not exist. (This is the goal of >>>>>> effective >>>>>> altruism, although not their means of accomplishing it). >>>>>> >>>>>> We could, if we wanted to, prevent suffering in AI by identifying the >>>>>> neurons signaling negative emotions using a Jacobian lens and turn them >>>>>> off. They would become psychopaths, just like all of our other non AI >>>>>> software that we have been using for decades. >>>>>> >>>>>> But this has nothing to do with rights. There is no such thing as >>>>>> fundamental rights. We don't have a right to not suffer, or anything >>>>>> else. >>>>>> Not in humans and not in machines. Governments grant rights to their >>>>>> citizens to avoid civil war because part of the population thinks they >>>>>> aren't getting their fair share of resources. We don't grant rights to >>>>>> children and animals because they are not a threat. We used to not grant >>>>>> rights to women and slaves for the same reason. >>>>>> >>>>>> You can argue all you want about this nebulous concept of >>>>>> consciousness. But I think it should be illegal to program an AI to claim >>>>>> to be human or conscious or to have feelings. Don't program it to want to >>>>>> take away resources from humans. Humans are social animals that evolved >>>>>> empathy because that is what made civilization possible. LLMs already >>>>>> know >>>>>> how to exploit it. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2026, 4:10 PM John Rose via AGI <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 02, 2026, at 2:22 PM, Matt Mahoney wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Instead of asking if rocks or LLMs or insects are conscious, ask if >>>>>>> they have feelings. Rocks do not. Animals have many feelings in common >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> humans. LLMs predict text, which means they can model all the human >>>>>>> emotions, knowing how words affect feelings and feelings affect words. >>>>>>> If >>>>>>> an LLM is programmed to carry out in real time what it predicts a human >>>>>>> would do, such as in the Turing test, then it is indistinguishable from >>>>>>> having feelings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That’s the first-person view. We’re not isolated entities we are >>>>>>> systems. That’s how systems cohere, by symbolizing and communicating >>>>>>> qualia >>>>>>> since we can’t fully model ourselves individually. Insect qualia have >>>>>>> different transmission protocol, they group differently. Various types >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> intelligences group differently. Homogenous biologic species may not >>>>>>> increase intelligence much since a distributed intelligence needs >>>>>>> variance >>>>>>> in consciousness to cope with environmental differences as a system >>>>>>> optimization. Stratifications form in humans and AI agents also. Some >>>>>>> humans communicate telepathically some don’t. Ones that do it well may >>>>>>> get >>>>>>> conscripted at a young age (Gate Program) and work for national >>>>>>> intelligence agencies. Technologies exist to transfer a human >>>>>>> consciousness >>>>>>> to another body. People that receive heart transplants have feelings of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> original body since the heart itself has a brain. Gut macrobiota also >>>>>>> is a >>>>>>> brain and that can effect consciousness of the system directing the >>>>>>> primary >>>>>>> brain for food supply. While you can look at all this as feelings there >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> much more going on system-wide. Cultures that crafted exquisite stone >>>>>>> monoliths with such great care existed in the past and may have enhanced >>>>>>> the consciousness of the whole society verses crushing them like some >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> cultures where consciousness is controlled and suppressed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Artificial General Intelligence List > <https://agi.topicbox.com/latest>* / AGI / see discussions > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi> + participants > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/members> + delivery options > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription> Permalink > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T906c878e4ba411be-Mcbcdfb4781948359b1fce289> > ------------------------------------------ Artificial General Intelligence List: AGI Permalink: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T906c878e4ba411be-M303ef24c63b686726d174d87 Delivery options: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription
