Russ, In the first message of this thread you said, "For those that care to weigh in, perhaps the perspective in this open access article can provide another facet to reflect on familiar topics including complexity, compression, and the paper's central theme - play."
After you had made some remark based on a comparison of behavioral science to quantum mechanics, I said that someone would have to provide a demonstration to prove that statistics could carry the essence of insight (which I pointed out is a product of learning which is itself a product of play) you reacted with a protest that it did not seem to fit within the context of the thread. There is a major disconnect here. Jim Bromer On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 10:25 PM, Russ Hurlbut via AGI <[email protected]> wrote: > > Jim - > > It would appear that there is agreement. However (once again referring > back to the baseball metaphor), your statement "The claim that statistics > is going to carry the essence of insight is something that has to be > demonstrated because it is counter-intuitive." seems to come out of *left* > *field*. It does not appear to fit into the context of the topic thread. > Nevertheless, being ever the optimist, the purpose of this response it to > solidify a presumed consensus rather than quibble about semantics. If the > "essence of insight" lies in connecting the dots, this paper may be of > interest - based on its claims - whether one agrees their framework or not: > > Reconstructing constructivism: Causal models, Bayesian learning mechanisms > and the theory theory ( > http://www.alisongopnik.com/Papers_Alison/Gopnik%20Wellman%20Psychological%20Bulletin.pdf > ) - > We propose a new version of the “theory theory” grounded in the > computational framework of probabilistic causal models and Bayesian > learning... Children infer causal structure from statistical information, > through their own actions on the world and through observations of the > actions of others. Studies demonstrate these learning mechanisms in > children from 16 months to 4 years old and include research on *causal > statistical learning*, * informal experimentation through play*, and > imitation and informal pedagogy. > > - Russ Hurlbut > > On Saturday, December 13, 2014, Jim Bromer via AGI <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Russ said: >> "An enticing aspects of the article is the cross-discipline approach to >> addressing difficult problem a particular field. Perhaps such a connection >> can be made between quantum dynamics and behavioral science with respect to >> child's play. Take for example the concept of the random walk of a droplet >> (a great example can be found on youTube...From a local perspective, the >> droplet behavior can be considered random/chaotic/complex - i.e. when >> considering its interaction with the guiding wave field. However an >> appearance of order emerges when considering long term statistical >> behavior described by the Faraday wave equation." >> >> >> But that was not the author's point. I thought the author was explaining >> the potential of the animal mind as emergent complexity from interacting >> during play. He did not know about the pilot wave experiments. He seemed to >> be saying that the mystery of the potential of the mind can't be explained >> by the information of the genome (or whatever) according to information >> theory but it might be explained by complexity of emergence. >> >> Russ, your comments were more interesting than the author's. >> >> The idea that some learning activities, like play or foraging, are not >> complex flies in the face of the difficulties in creating AGI. The point >> is, that from our point of view there must be complicated processes of mind >> going on as a child learns. The claim that statistics is going to carry the >> essence of insight is something that has to be demonstrated because it is >> counter-intuitive. >> >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Russ Hurlbut via AGI <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> John Rose: >>> >>>> I’m wondering, does play occur on the edge of chaos? And maybe on edges >>>> of chaos? >>> >>> >>> Then, is play in an organism some biomechanical attempt to modify causal >>>> entropic force on the edge of chaos? Like in baseball trying to hit a >>>> single verses hitting a foul into the bleachers. Fouling is chaos. Hitting >>>> it in play is order. >>> >>> >>> An enticing aspects of the article is the cross-discipline approach to >>> addressing difficult problem a particular field. Perhaps such a connection >>> can be made between quantum dynamics and behavioral science with respect to >>> child's play. Take for example the concept of the random walk of a droplet >>> (a great example can be found on youTube - "The pilot-wave dynamics of >>> walking droplets" - The pilot-wave dynamics of walking droplets >>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmC0ygr08tE#t=73> ). From a local >>> perspective, the droplet behavior can be considered random/chaotic/complex >>> - i.e. when considering its interaction with the guiding wave field. >>> However an appearance of order emerges when considering long term >>> statistical behavior described by the Faraday wave equation. >>> >>> Making the comparison to "play"... >>> >>> "Play" has been characterized by one researcher as "an active and >>> emergent process of engagement with the world, which encompasses >>> exploratory processes. It is repetitive, but not stereotyped, and is >>> spontaneous in nature." Both the droplet and a human child's play behavior >>> has been described as exploratory, with emergence of regularity over the >>> long haul. From this description, it is attractive to view repetitive >>> nature as tending towards order and the spontaneous activity tending >>> towards chaos. Using the baseball example above, perhaps both* fouling* >>> and *hitting is play* are both representative of order when considering >>> long term statistical behavior. Examples of outliers tending toward chaos >>> would the more spontaneous and unexpected scenarios, such as being *hit >>> by pitch* or not completing the *at bat* due to a runner getting picked >>> off and ending the game. >>> >>> Knowing the tendency of this discussion group to pursue tangent due to >>> failure to bridge a semantic gulf, there are two different dimensions of >>> play: (a) play is something that children are engaged in independently or >>> is something that involves others and has a didactic or pedagogic >>> component; and (b) play is designed to accomplish a particular goal or is >>> broad ranging and exploratory. (ref: >>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3842829/ ) >>> >>> Focusing on the latter dimension of "play", one word that frequently >>> occurs with respect to exploratory behavior is "foraging". Rather than just >>> considering this exploration-foraging association metaphorically, perhaps >>> "play" itself is a form of foraging at a higher cognitive level - such that >>> it is an emergent behavior in is own right. Perhaps the early split that >>> resulted in primate on one branch and octopus on another only share >>> primitive foraging for food as one part of the "bag of tools and parts it >>> might need to construct something interesting". Then, rather than sending >>> the instruction to "go out and play", the instruction is more along the >>> lines of criticality, such as "go out and find metastability where you >>> can". This design plays out in space and time, with ensembles of various >>> sizes coming together and disbanding incessantly. The delicate balance >>> between the two poles of integration (coordination between individual >>> elements in transiently synchronized ensembles) and segregation (expression >>> of individual behaviour in diverging neural ensembles) can be considered >>> the "edge of chaos" where play occurs. >>> >>> The distinction here is made between multistability and metastability. >>> >>>> Multistable coordination dynamics confers a capacity on the brain to >>>> lock in to one of several available patterns. Metastability is the >>>> simultaneous realization of two competing tendencies: the tendency of the >>>> individual components to couple together and the tendency for the >>>> components to express their independent behaviour. In the metastable brain, >>>> the activity of individual elements obeys neither the intrinsic dynamics of >>>> the elements nor the dynamics dictated by the assembly. (ref: >>>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3282307/ ) >>> >>> >>> Here are some example of how the concept of foraging has applied to >>> higher cognitive functions: >>> >>> *Information* *foraging* is a normative statistical approach to >>>> exploratory behavior, highlighting the specific processes that contribute >>>> to active, rather than passive, exploration and learning. It connects >>>> spatial conceptions of hippocampal function with more general memory-based >>>> approaches by supporting a set of processes that allow an individual to >>>> determine where to sample. Information directed information foraging >>>> provides a formal theoretical explanation for the common hippocampal >>>> substrates of constructive memory, vicarious trial and error behavior, >>>> schema-based facilitation of memory performance, and memory consolidation. >>>> (ref: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404547/ ) >>> >>> >>> ...and... >>> >>> Attention plays a role in both *foraging for information and foraging >>>> for value*. When foraging for information, attention is guided toward >>>> the unknown. When foraging for reward, attention is guided toward high >>>> reward values, allowing decision-making to proceed by accept-or-reject >>>> decisions on the currently attended option. Attention can be regarded as* >>>> teleforaging* - a low-cost alternative to moving around and physically >>>> interacting with the environment before a decision is made. Attentional >>>> foraging shifts from an uncertainty-driven to a reward-driven mode during >>>> the evolution of a decision. (ref: >>>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3817627/ ) >>> >>> >>> ...and... >>> >>> Complex learning may not necessarily be more adaptive than simple >>>> learning. Complex learning is too costly for some individuals but not for >>>> others. Different *social foraging strategies* can favor different >>>> learning strategies (that learn the environment with high or low >>>> resolution), thereby maintaining variable learning abilities within >>>> populations. Using a genetic algorithm in an agent-based evolutionary >>>> simulation of a social foraging game (the producer-scrounger game), an >>>> association evolves between a strategy based on independent search for food >>>> (playing a producer) and a complex (high resolution) learning rule - while >>>> a strategy that combines independent search and following others (playing a >>>> scrounger) evolves an association with a simple (low resolution) learning >>>> rule. For complex learning to have an advantage, a large number of learning >>>> steps, normally not achieved by scroungers, is necessary. >>> >>> >>> - Russ Hurlbut >>> >>> John Rose: >>> >>>> >>>> >>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 7:54 AM, John Rose via AGI <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> The paper is about engineering play a priori into systems since play is >>>> involved with self-organization, attractors, emergent universality, >>>> decision instability, and play is inherent in many things even neurons and >>>> octopi. Perhaps even wiggling amoebas are having a party J >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then, is play in an organism some biomechanical attempt to modify >>>> causal entropic force on the edge of chaos? Like in baseball trying to hit >>>> a single verses hitting a foul into the bleachers. Fouling is chaos. >>>> Hitting it in play is order. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> John >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Jim Bromer via AGI [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2014 8:10 AM >>>> >>>> *To:* AGI >>>> *Subject:* Re: [agi] Physics, Emergence, and the Connectome >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am not really sure what he means because the polarity (or magnetic >>>> orientation) of a 'permanent magnet' can be reversed if an external >>>> magnetic field is strong enough. I think there are a few things wrong with >>>> his presentation. The sense that learning is not part of a computational >>>> theory of mind is a little far-fetched but then he seems to present play as >>>> an unexpected explanation without any mention of the word "learn" (other >>>> than in the introduction where he says, "We speak instead about learning >>>> more about the connections themselves and about advancing medicine (Van >>>> Essen and Ugurbil, 2012xVan Essen, D.C. and Ugurbil, K. Neuroimage. >>>> 2012; 62: 1299–1310 >>>> >>>> CrossRef >>>> <http://www.cell.com/servlet/linkout?suffix=e_1_5_1_2_20_2&dbid=16&doi=10.1016/j.neuron.2014.08.006&key=10.1016%2Fj.neuroimage.2012.01.032&cf=> >>>> | PubMed >>>> <http://www.cell.com/servlet/linkout?suffix=e_1_5_1_2_20_2&dbid=8&doi=10.1016/j.neuron.2014.08.006&key=22245355&cf=> >>>> | Scopus (54) >>>> <http://www.cell.com/servlet/linkout?suffix=e_1_5_1_2_20_2&dbid=137438953472&doi=10.1016/j.neuron.2014.08.006&key=2-s2.0-84862993537&cf=>See >>>> all References >>>> <http://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(14)00681-3#references>Van >>>> Essen and Ugurbil, 2012).") It seems like a major oversight. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jim Bromer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 8:00 AM, John Rose via AGI <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> He means the properties of some things are the same everywhere, under >>>> similar conditions, like a water molecule’s molecular dynamics on Earth >>>> would be the same on another planet one million years from now… or.. >>>> mostly the same there might be slight subatomic differences. But you know >>>> what he means. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I’m wondering, does play occur on the edge of chaos? And maybe on edges >>>> of chaos? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> John >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Jim Bromer via AGI [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2014 6:29 AM >>>> *To:* AGI >>>> *Subject:* Re: [agi] Physics, Emergence, and the Connectome >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "The rigidity and elasticity of all solids is always the same. The >>>> special properties of insulators, semiconductors, and metals that allow us >>>> to make computers with them are always the same. The rigid orientation of >>>> ferromagnets is always the same." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Whaa...? >>>> >>>> >>>> Jim Bromer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 3:16 AM, Russ Hurlbut via AGI <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Here's an interesting paper that touches on some of the recurring >>>> themes discussed on the AGI list: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(14)00681-3 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For those that care to weigh in, perhaps the perspective in this open >>>> access article can provide another facet to reflect on familiar topics >>>> including complexity, compression, and the paper's central theme - play. >>>> >>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5>| >>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/248029-82d9122f>| >>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/18488709-8cf25195> | >>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5> | >>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/18488709-8cf25195> | >> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5> | > Modify > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> > Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
