*in an ,_, On 9/29/08, Eric Burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Extracting meaning from text requires context-sensitivity to do > correctly. Natural language parsers necessarily don't reason about > things. An AGI whose natural-language interface was abstracted via > some good parser could make suppositions about the constructs it > returned by interpreting them inside of the contexts that are most > relevant. But, this would only save the cognitive layer the trouble of > converting grammar to symbols and vice-versa. If an AGI could acquire > language naturally I think it would be in a better position to use it > well than if it only ever uses it via an abstracted interface. An > oblique parser/sentence generator mechanism seems like a sensible way > to implement internationalization, however. Although you can also > always do machine translation on the I/O of an AGI that only speaks > English... > > I can see a grammar engine as a mechanical form of grounding, like a > robot body, but only barely. I think an AGI so grounded would > eventually seek another way to communicate. At some point its > creativity and ability to communicate ideas would exceed that of its > sentence generator, and its comprehension would be greater than that > of its parser. I'm not sure these belong in AGI design. But, I could > be wrong. > > > On 9/29/08, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Eric, >> >> Thanks for link. Flipping through quickly, it still seemed sentence-based. >> >> Here's an example of time flipping - "fast-forwarding" text - and the kind >> of jumps that the mind can make >> >> "AGI Year One. "AGI is one of the great technological challenges. We >> believe >> we have the basic technology - the basic modules - to meet that >> challenge." >> AGI Year Five. "We can reach the goal of AGI in 10 years, if we really, >> really try." >> AGI Year Ten. "It may take longer than we thought, but we can get >> there..." >> AGI Year Fifteen: "It's proved a much larger problem than we ever >> imagined.." " >> >> [n.b. I'm not trying to be historically or otherwise accurate :) >> >> But note how your mind had no problem creating a v. complex underlying >> time-jumping scenario to understand - and fill/read between the lines of - >> that text. No current approach has the slightest idea how to do that, I >> suggest. You can't do it by a surface approach, simply analysing how >> words >> are used in however many million verbally related sentences in texts on >> the >> net. >> >> >> >>> http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7933698775159827395&ei=Z1rhSJz7CIvw-QHQyNkC&q=nltk&vt=lf >>> >>> NLTK video ;O >>> >>> On 9/29/08, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>> David, >>>> >>>> Thanks for reply. Like so many other things, though, working out how we >>>> understand texts is central to understanding GI - and something to be >>>> done >>>> *now*. I've just started looking at it, but immediately I can see that >>>> what >>>> the mind does - how it jumps around in time and space and POV and >>>> person/subject - and flexibly applies its world/subworld models - is >>>> quite >>>> awesome. >>>> >>>> I think the word/sentence focus BTW is central to cognitive science >>>> *and* >>>> the embodied cog. sci. of Lakoff and co. as well as AI/AGI. >>>> >>>> But the understanding of language understanding will only really come >>>> alive >>>> when we move the focus to passages - and how we use language to >>>> construct >>>> >>>> a) >>>> stories b) arguments and c) scenes (descriptive passages). [I wonder >>>> whether there are any other major categories of language]. >>>> >>>> It also entails a switch from just a one-sided embodied POV to a >>>> two-sided >>>> embodied-embedded overview, looking at how language is embedded in the >>>> world. >>>> >>>> To focus on sentences alone is like focussing on the odd frame in a >>>> movie. >>>> You can't get the picture at all. >>>> >>>> A passage/text approach will v. quickly answer Matt's: >>>> >>>> "I mean that a more productive approach would be to try to understand >>>> why >>>> the problem is so hard." >>>> >>>> >>>> David: >>>> >>>> How does Stephen or YKY or anyone else propose to "read between the >>>> lines"? And what are the basic "world models", "scripts", "frames" etc >>>> etc. >>>> that you think sufficient to apply in understanding any set of texts, >>>> even a >>>> relatively specialised set? >>>> >>>> (Has anyone seriously *tried* understanding passages?) >>>> >>>> That's a most thoughtful and germane question! The short answer is no, >>>> we're not ready yet to even *try* to tackle understanding passages. >>>> Reaching >>>> that goal is definitely on the roadmap though, and there's a concrete >>>> plan >>>> to get there involving learning through vast and varied activities >>>> experienced over the course of many years of practically continious >>>> residence in numerous virtual worlds. The plan indeed includes the >>>> continuous creation, variation and development of mental world-models >>>> within >>>> an OCP-based mind. Attention allocation and many other mind dynamics >>>> (CIMDynamics) crucial to this world-modeling faculty must be adequately >>>> developed, tested and tuned as a pre-requisite to begin trying to >>>> understand >>>> passages (and, also to generate and communicate imagined world-models as >>>> a >>>> human story teller would do; a curious byproduct of an intelligent >>>> system >>>> that can reason about potential events and scenarios!) >>>> >>>> NB: help is needed on the OpenCog wiki to better document many of the >>>> concepts discussed here and elsewhere, e.g. Concretely-Implemented Mind >>>> Dynamics (CIMDynamics) requires a MindOntology page explaining it >>>> conceptually, in addtion to the existing nuts-and-bolts entry in the >>>> OpenCogPrime section. >>>> >>>> -dave >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>> agi >>>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >>>> Modify Your Subscription: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------- >>> agi >>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >>> Modify Your Subscription: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> agi >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> >
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