This is a really good avenue of discussion for me. Mind-changing experiences are fully within my conversational comfort zone. I actually think psychedelics are very nearly on topic for the AGI list inasmuch as they are like a microscope or a telescope for the mind. They produce new points of view and to some extent, a window into otherwise invisible worlds. The difficulty in the use of psychedelics as analytic apparatus would seem to be data collection ,_,
On 11/24/08, Robin Gane-McCalla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think psychedelics and the psychedelic experience are much more > complicated than most people realize and you only go into a small instance > of their complexity. However I'm not sure how useful they will be in trying > to build intelligence on a computer. Computers can't take psychedelics, > psychedelics are substrate dependent, so much so that they affect humans > differently. Hypothetically we could design psychedelics for computers but > I don't think that would be a good idea. > > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Ed Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Since I assume Ben, as well as a lot of the rest of us, want the AGI >> movement to receive respectability in the academic and particularly in the >> funding community, it is probably best that other than brain-science- or >> AGI-focused discussions of the effects of drugs should not become too >> common >> on the AGI list itself. Ben, of course, is the ultimate decider of that. >> >> I remember the excitement I had over 3 to 4 decades ago when I >> experimented >> with psychedelics (although at relatively low dosages), so I can >> sympathize >> with the enthusiasms of current experimenters. And I find some of the >> written accounts of such experiments that I have read on the web to be >> very >> thoughtful, at time reminiscent, and very interesting from a brain >> science/AGI point of view. But right now I am sufficiently busy with more >> concrete realities that I am not in the market for such encounters. >> >> I do think psychedelic experiences can shed valuable light on the extent >> to >> which all perception is hallucination, just normally it is well turned and >> controlled hallucination. >> >> For example, the experiences some have reported, including off list in >> this >> discussion, of the sense of 3+1 D spacetime being shattered, or being >> perceived as very different, is not a surprise if one considers that your >> normal perception of space and time is an extremely complex and carefully >> controlled hallucination. If you substantially remove that control, it is >> not surprising that, for example, a cubist-like deconstruction of special >> perception might occur. After all, your mind has to stitch together its >> normal visual continuousness of 3D spatial reality from stereographic >> projections onto V1, which because of jerky saccades of the eye, are a >> rapid, disjointed, succession of grossly fish-eyed projections. So when >> psychedelics interfere with the normal process of stitching together >> projections from V1 and/or V2 and from remembered matching patterns of >> shapes and objects --- each having their own set of dimensions --- it is >> not >> surprising that a very different perception of space could arise, >> including >> a perception of a dis-joint set of many more than than 3+1 dimensions. >> >> With regard to perceptions of direct communicating with a myriad of other >> consciousnesses, such as elves, this is not surprising either, since the >> concept of unity of consciousness is also a construct generated by mental >> behavior and mental models, as is the construct of 3D space. Your brain >> is >> capable of generating many voices, many senses of awareness at once. But >> it >> normally works best, for generating behavior that helps humans survive, to >> have a greater, more distinct divide between what is conscious and what is >> kept in the subconscious, so that greater focus on the problems and >> behaviors at hand can be achieved. >> >> I am not, in any way trying to belittle the importance, nor "realness" of >> psychedelic experiences, but I am saying that my study of brain science >> and >> my own experiences decades ago with psychedelics make me think that one >> cannot always trust one's perceptions, particularly when one is on >> psychedelics. >> >> All perception can be considered hallucinations, that is, constructs of >> the >> brain --- but some hallucinations are more valuable for certain tasks than >> others. >> >> I think psychedelics, if properly used, can be of sufficient worth, in >> helping humans better understand our own minds and spirits and their >> relationship to reality --- that --- if our society were more rational --- >> it probably should have some limited ritualized used of psychedelics, as >> have many primitive societies. But it is not clear to me yet how rational >> our society is capable of being, particularly if drug use is too widely >> spread. Our society is changing so rapidly that much of traditional folk >> wisdom is out of date, and much of what has replaced it has be generated >> by >> commercially driven culture, that is, by its very nature exploitative. >> >> I think such drugs can have great danger of removing people from important >> aspects of reality. As humanity starts spiraling ever faster into the >> wormhole of the singularity, and as the world becomes more and more >> crowded, >> polluted, and competitive, and the have-nots increasingly have more power, >> and as the media can provide increasingly seductive non-realities, and as >> machine superintelligences increasingly decrease the relative value of >> human >> work and human thought, I fear that truly mind-altering drugs, if use too >> widely, could increase, rather than decrease, the chance that humanity >> will >> fare well --- as civilization, as we know it, is increasingly and more >> rapidly distorted by the momentus changes that face us. >> >> But I am 60 years old, so maybe my viewpoint is out of date. >> >> Ed Porter >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> agi >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> > > > > -- > Robin Gane-McCalla > YIM: Robin_Ganemccalla > AIM: Robinganemccalla > > > > ------------------------------------------- > agi > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
