Hmmm... I don't think your conceptualization of "rationality" is particularly useful ...
I do think "formal reasoning" is a useful category to distinguish, but this is much narrower than what you're somewhat arbitrarily lumping into the category of "rationality" I don't think it's sensible to say that language, logic and math are somehow detached from imagination in the general sense, just because they are not imagistic I don't think there is anything special about vision, nor do I find introspectively that all my thinking involves some sort of "internal screen." No. Some of it does, some of it doesn't. The whole idea of a "two cultures" divide between the rationalists and the artists seems oddly obsolete, and not reflective of contemporary culture in which these things are rather intermixed. The distinction between -- formal thought, using explicit formal rules to manipulate structures -- simulative thought, which is based on internally manipulating and generating models, scenarios, etc. designed to resemble things in the physical world is interesting and worthwhile, IMO. It seems to me you talk too much about visual images, when what you really should be talking about is simulative thought more generally. "Imagination" -- in the general sense of creating wild new ideas and forms -- seems to me to involve both formal and simulative thought, in many cases. Certainly, there is a powerful formal aspect to visual arts (e.g. the rules of perspective, the projective rules used in cubism, etc.), as well as a powerful simulative aspect to many kinds of mathematical creation. I don't agree that I "know next to nothing about imaginative intelligence." Actually, I've generally been considered a rather imaginative person throughout my life ... and I've read an awful lot of the literature on the topic of imagination, both in psychology, philosophy, literary and art criticism, and so forth. Whether my AI designs are capable to lead to "artificial imagination" is another question, but, your commentary certainly has not convinced me otherwise ;-) -- Ben G On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ben, > > I should explain "rationality" - I mean it technically to cover (principally > formal) language, logic and maths, including geometry. These are all the > sign systems (inherited from the Greeks) which convert the world into more > or less hard-edged, more or less abstract boxes - words, numbers, and > geometrical figures. Boxes which are "ratio-nal" - capable of precise, > measured comparison or ratios. (Hence "irrational" numbers). These are also > the systems of the book. > > Imagination here means all the image systems of the arts - such as > movies,tv and all the dramatic arts, records, radio, painting sculpture tc > - which reflect the world at a concrete level, before rationality converts > it. (In terms of the economy, BTW, "imaginative intelligence" workers - > designers, artists, admen etc. etc - may well be as significant/numerous as > "rational intelligence" workers.In terms of our high culture, artists may > also be as numerous as scientists and technologists). > > Actual general intelligence in humans and animals is indisputably > continuously "screen-based." You can have conscious intelligence without > language, logic or maths. You can't have it without a "screen" - the > continuous movie of consciousness. And that screen is not just vision but > sound. > > (Evolution IOW knows something about intelligence that you don't). > > Of course, the screen in "screen-based" is strictly a limited, metaphoric > model, if an extremely useful and now essential one. Actual human/animal > consciousness is much more complex still, involving the other senses, and > being, in a sense, solid and distributed over a large space, as opposed to > concentrated on a flat surface. > > If you're smart, I suggest, you'll acknowledge the truth here, which is > that you know next to nothing about imaginative intelligence, (as indeed > does our culture) - hardly appropriate if you're claiming to be interested > in "general" intelligence - and, as the Kelly article indicates, it's time > to start learning, fast. > > Ben: > >> Yes, but "rationality without imagination and creativity" is just a >> bogus "straw man" construct ... certainly, it is never what I mean >> when I talk about "rationality" ... >> >> Obsession with visual images is a whole other issue, though. It seems >> very obvious that an AI or alien organism with no visual perception >> could be massively intelligent and creative, potentially more so than >> humans. Vision is merely one particular way of sensing and internally >> modeling portions of the physical world. >> >> ben >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>> >>> You'll remember that I've been saying this for quite a while - now Kevin >>> Kelly is saying it - and you'll be hearing a lot more of this >>> >>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/magazine/23wwln-future-t.html?_r=2&sq=KEVIN%20KELLY&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all >>> >>> "Intelligence" that is rationality without imagination, symbol >>> manipulation >>> without image manipulation, basically paper-based rather than >>> screen-based >>> (or "consciousness"-based), isn't intelligence at all. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------- >>> agi >>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >>> Modify Your Subscription: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Goertzel, PhD >> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC >> Director of Research, SIAI >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> "The empires of the future are the empires of the mind." >> -- Sir Winston Churchill >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> agi >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > agi > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The empires of the future are the empires of the mind." -- Sir Winston Churchill ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
