The point I was trying to make is that an approach that tries to interpret language just using language itself and without sufficient information or the means to realistically acquire that information, *should* fail.
On the other hand, an approach that tries to interpret vision with minimal upfront knowledge needs *should* succeed because the knowledge required to automatically learn to interpret images is amenable to preprogramming. In addition, such knowledge must be pre-programmed. The knowledge for interpreting language though should not be pre-programmed. Dave On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Matt Mahoney <matmaho...@yahoo.com> wrote: > David Jones wrote: > > I wish people understood this better. > > For example, animals can be intelligent even though they lack language > because they can see. True, but an AGI with language skills is more useful > than one without. > > And yes, I realize that language, vision, motor skills, hearing, and all > the other senses and outputs are tied together. Skills in any area make > learning the others easier. > > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Jones <davidher...@gmail.com> > *To:* agi <agi@v2.listbox.com> > *Sent:* Tue, June 29, 2010 1:42:51 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [agi] A Primary Distinction for an AGI > > Mike, > > THIS is the flawed reasoning that causes people to ignore vision as the > right way to create AGI. And I've finally come up with a great way to show > you how wrong this reasoning is. > > I'll give you an extremely obvious argument that proves that vision > requires much less knowledge to interpret than language does. Let's say that > you have never been to egypt, you have never seen some particular movie > before. But if you see the movie, an alien landscape, an alien world, a new > place or any such new visual experience, you can immediately interpret it in > terms of spacial, temporal, compositional and other relationships. > > Now, go to egypt and listen to them speak. Can you interpret it? Nope. > Why?! Because you don't have enough information. The language itself does > not contain any information to help you interpret it. We do not learn > language simply by listening. We learn based on evidence from how the > language is used and how it occurs in our daily lives. Without that > experience, you cannot interpret it. > > But with vision, you do not need extra knowledge to interpret a new > situation. You can recognize completely new objects without any training > except for simply observing them in their natural state. > > I wish people understood this better. > > Dave > > On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Mike Tintner > <tint...@blueyonder.co.uk>wrote: > >> Just off the cuff here - isn't the same true for vision? You can't learn >> vision from vision. Just as all NLP has no connection with the real world, >> and totally relies on the human programmer's knowledge of that world. >> >> Your visual program actually relies totally on your visual "vocabulary" - >> not its own. That is the inevitable penalty of processing unreal signals on >> a computer screen which are not in fact connected to the real world any more >> than the verbal/letter signals involved in NLP are. >> >> What you need to do - what anyone in your situation with anything like >> your asprations needs to do - is to hook up with a roboticist. Everyone here >> should be doing that. >> >> >> *From:* David Jones <davidher...@gmail.com> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 29, 2010 5:27 PM >> *To:* agi <agi@v2.listbox.com> >> *Subject:* Re: [agi] A Primary Distinction for an AGI >> >> You can't learn language from language without embedding way more >> knowledge than is reasonable. Language does not contain the information >> required for its interpretation. There is no *reason* to interpret the >> language into any of the infinite possible interpretaions. There is nothing >> to explain but it requires explanatory reasoning to determine the correct >> real world interpretation >> >> On Jun 29, 2010 10:58 AM, "Matt Mahoney" <matmaho...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> David Jones wrote: >> > Natural language requires more than the words on the page in the real >> world. Of... >> Any knowledge that can be demonstrated over a text-only channel (as in the >> Turing test) can also be learned over a text-only channel. >> >> >> >> > Cyc also is trying to store knowledge about a super complicated world in >> simplistic forms and al... >> Cyc failed because it lacks natural language. The vast knowledge store of >> the internet is unintelligible to Cyc. The average person can't use it >> because they don't speak Cycl and because they have neither the ability nor >> the patience to translate their implicit thoughts into augmented first order >> logic. Cyc's approach was understandable when they started in 1984 when they >> had neither the internet nor the vast computing power that is required to >> learn natural language from unlabeled examples like children do. >> >> >> >> > Vision and other sensory interpretaion, on the other hand, do not >> require more info because that... >> Without natural language, your system will fail too. You don't have enough >> computing power to learn language, much less the million times more >> computing power you need to learn to see. >> >> >> >> >> -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com >> >> ________________________________ >> From: David Jones <davidher...@gmail.com> >> To: agi <a...@v2.listbox.c... >> *Sent:* Mon, June 28, 2010 9:28:57 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [agi] A Primary Distinction for an AGI >> >> >> Natural language requires more than the words on the page in the real >> world. Of course that didn't ... >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
