At 09:48 AM 4/25/2008, you wrote:
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Kim Elmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I generally sit on my hands, but I'm feeling waggish so...
Sorry, I don't have a Milkbone for you. (o:
Well, it's the thought that counts
> A false premise. The same ratios roughly hold for the overall US
electorate
> (I'm not talking only registered voters, I'm talking the eligible
> electorate). Given the premise made here, are we to assume that the large
> majority of the electorate that doesn't bother to vote feels the same way
> about?
Actually, it's not. Turnout for the 2004 national election was over 60
percent according to the US Census Bureau:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p20-556.pdf
50% or higher most of the time in national elections, far better than
the ARRL (a national organization) can claim of licensed amateurs.
You're right, my bad. Still, the same principle holds.
When people feel their vote actually matters, they vote. How many
times have you heard someone lament that 'politicians' who do whatever
they want, regardless of what their constituents ask of them? Sounds a
lot like the complaints about ARRL officials.
Not to make too fine a point of it, but you're not a "constituent" of
the ARRL because you aren't a member. Even so, you *are* a licensed
ham and so what the ARRL does affects you, even if you aren't a member.
And no, it's not merely a case of sour grapes as you and Pete seem to
be implying. I've been told the same thing by ARRL officials as by
local politicians, when asked why they clearly go against the will of
the people at times: "I was elected to do what I feel is best, to use
my judgement, to vote my conscience" etc, not to necessarily do what
the people ask.
In some sense, they're right: it's a representative organization.
Although, if shown evidence of a representative going against a
strong majority, I expect a darned good answer. Otherwise, that
representative gets booted.
> If you don't like the technical article content, write one and submit it.
> TAs (technical advisors) perform the "peer review" for submissions to all
> League publications. Are you a TA? Have you seen the nature of what gets
> submitted? I am, and I do.
You apparently missed this part Kim, but like many others, I'm one of
the folks who got sick of banging my head against the wall so fondly
known as the ARRL.
No, I didn't miss it. I get that part: you don;t like the fact that,
for whatever reason, the ARRL doesn't see things eye to eye with you.
I did request more diversified content of my
director, even volunteered to submit some myself. I was told in pretty
clear terms that it is not the 'vision' the ARRL has for the future.
Not that I couldn't submit it, just that I shouldn't expect to see it
printed (in so many words).
I'mnot going to hunt witches here, though there may be some to catch.
Submit your article and let it stand or fall to the TA's peer review.
That's where all the technical articles go and, believe me, there are
some shining examples of the highest in our art submitted there along
with some real dogs.
> But, I keep hearing that "It's all those Yaecomwood ads that ruined QST."
> Or the vast, rice-box conspiracy to manipulate us into appliance operating
> zombies. Which is it?
You're really pushing the 'straw man' to the limit here, Kim. I've not
made that argument and I don't see that anyone else has.
I wasn't referring to you, and I admit that wasn't clear. My point is
that I see both arguments presented by various contributors and I
don't see anything constructive come from either one.
As AMers we
welcome anyone to the mode with whatever gear they can muster. We help
them to properly set up their rigs to get the most out of them in the
mode. It's then up to them whether they're content with what they have
or want something more or different.
The highest ideal, and I do commend it.
The issue of ads in QST relates more to what the magazine once was vs
what it has become, tracking with the ARRL leadership's handling. This
predates the perceived 'need' for a separate technical publication. My
argument was, and is - with the declining amateur population and
continued whining by the League in recent years about costs, income,
and the rest, why produce a monthly catalog/contest results and
separate technical publication along side? I can only guess that they
figure the technical types will thin out enough to drop QEX and leave
the glossy QST catalog as the only regular publication available to
the membership.
I don't believe in conspiracies and that's how this reads. Hence, I
dismiss it out of hand. Besides, the TAs reviews often make
recommendations about where particular articles should go, not
necessarily the QST or QEX editor.
> Hmmm... The same holds for PSK-31, or RTTY, or MFSK16, or (gasp!)
> slopbucket! Red herring, methinks.
Okay, you're definitely not getting your doggy treat for that silly remark. :D
It was intended as tongue-in-cheek. My point was that there seems to
be no "mode-ism" in QST. Granted, AM doesn't appear every issue, but
then neither does SSB or CW or... It's a long list. QST can't promte
every mode and every kind of activity in every issue.
Red herring? No, actually you prove my point (although I suspect they
don't promote RTTY with the same zeal as contesting or the digital
modes).
Actually, they usually push the RTTY Roundup pretty hard. And they
don't push digital contesting very hard. Come to think of it, I can't
remember the last time they even discussed SSTV... But, I don't think
that makes the ARRL anti-SSTV.
> Again, the same ratios roughly hold for the US electorate. And again, a
> false premise. This shows that there are only a few eligible voters
> interested enough to actually make the effort to vote and that such
> characteristics hold for the small majority of voters that are also hams.
Again, nope. See link above . Expect that much or more this November.
But the parallel between apathy in politics and ARRL does track
nicely.
Yes, that was my point.
> Actually, in my experience, some of the most well-rounded hams are the
> contesters.
My experience lean more towards the term 'stunted'. A decade of first
hand accounts as state RACES coordinator showed clearly that
contesters repeatedly buckled under pressure during drills or actual
events when more than very basic information was sent their way in
rapid succession. That's not to say that others did particularly
better, simply that all we hear about contesters being excellent for
emergency traffic handling is anything but true. They did no better
overall than the average newbie who'd been licensed for a few years
either rag chewing or chasing DX.
Well, that's not one I've ever heard. I believe it's more about
training that anything else and you sort of say that in that
contesters don;t do much better than anyone else. I used to handle CW
traffic in NTS nets (back when there was CW traffic on NTS nets) and
the main thing I learned from it is the importance of following a set
protocol. But not even that makes me a good RACES guy. Each RACES
group does things in the ways that work for them and it's imperative
for the participants to follow those protocols. Contesting is all
protocol, so once they grok the protocol, I'd think the contesters
would do well in that activity.
I suppose when you're affiliated with a specific group, it's much
easier to see the 'good' as opposed to the 'bad. Human nature, no
doubt. I see AMers as a very helpful, technically-literate, helpful,
social group.
I think you're right. I think the AM crowd are, for the most part,
exemplary of the ham spirit.
Some outside of AM see AMers as primitive, uneducated,
and ridiculous for bothering with such an 'old' mode.
Well, sure. Don't take it personally -- I don't when I see
disparaging things said about the stuff I like to do. There's enough
room for all of it - it's a big world.
But my views on how contesting is seen aren't limited to the AM
community, either - just tune around on SSB during one of the many
contests and listen to the SSBers pissing and moaning about the rude
behavior.
Maybe. Maybe they're whining about anything different. I mean, there
are three bands (four if you count 60 m, but I don't think it should
be counted) on which there is never any contesting. I frankly think
most of the whining is because the band gets busy.
> I think that's an false characterization of the ARRL. Flawed as
it is, it's
> all we have and we'd best make the best of it.
Again, it's based on my personal experiences with those in power, as
well as other folks I know. But since it's also my *opinion*, it's not
open for you to decide whether it's false or not.
But took your presentation as an assertion of fact.
I could just as
easily say that your opinions (not facts) expressed here are based in
some never-never land fairytale world, showing a clear disregard for
the facts (those membership numbers you refuse to recognize as a
statement of disenchantment with US amateurs overall.) (o:
Ah, but I have recognized the voter issues. Membership issues are
different. I have to wonder how many other organizations deal with
similar issues? Is the ARRL special in this regard? I'd be surprised
is it were.
> With the phone band expansion, I simply do not believe that
there is a lack
> of space on the bands. That some may have decided that they, by God! own a
> particular frequency because they've been there N decades is an argument
> without merit. There's plenty of space available, even on contest weekends.
Well, we almost agree here, Kim. I make it a point to use different
frequencies whenever I call CQ, in order to avoid exactly what you
mention above. I also encourage others to do the same, as returning to
the same old spots does nothing but put us in a box, with no one to
blame but ourselves.
Plenty of space, even on contest weekends? Not true. I make a point to
use the frequencies below 3800 to provide an AM presence there and to
encourage others to get out of the old 75m AM box which annoys so many
and prevents some from even bothering to join in. A couple months back
during a contest weekend, I had a K8 station come right onto the 80
frequency I was using and start calling 'CQ contest'. When I informed
him that the frequency was in use, he replied "I don't care".
I think it's unfair to paint all contesters with such a broad brush.
What happened was anathema to a good contester and enjoys no support
from me. Just like I think it's unfair to label 75 m as a bunch of
olde farts whining about their prostate problems.
This was
witnessed by others on the frequency, and the station was even known
to Bud, WD8BIL who later emailed him about it. So it seems there isn't
as much space as you claim, and contesters really aren't the knights
in shining armor you and Pete would have us believe. No, I don't think
they're all lids, but I also don't believe it's a 'few bad apples'
moving around so rapidly as to annoy so many, in so many different
places.
I have no doubt it was witnessed. It doesn't take many bad apples,
etc. The good contesters simply don't do that. That guy was not an
example of a good contester. There's bad DXers, too and I mean some
real world-class jerks. But in my experience, the vast majority are
careful, considerate operators. The same holds for contesters. And
AMers, and SSBer, and SSTVers, and blip-jerks (CW ops) and, well,
name the mode.
> As a mater of fact, yes. All contesters that I know are quite considerate.
> But they also recognize that no one owns a frequency and if they happen to
> land on someone's favorite Sunday morning roundtable frequency, well...
> first come, first served. Move the roundtable!
See above. I won;t deny there are some AMers who feel they shouldn't
have to give up 'their' frequency to anyone, part of the reason I
prefer 80 to 75m. But when the frequency is in use, how about 'move
the contest'? That's the issue at hand: not coming on to find a
frequency in use, but being driven off by intentional interference
caused on a wide scale by an ego competition.
Again, it doesn't take many for this to happen, just like it doesn't
take many poor ops to make 20 m 'phone, or 75 m 'phone, look like a
hopeless ghetto. Run across just one of these guys with visitors in
the shack and imagine what impressions are taken away! It's happened
to me before. Because of that one experience, I almost never tune in
'phone for a visitor first thing. I find PSK31 or RTTY first. Then
maybe write down some CW for 'em, then, and only then, will I
carefully tune across the phone band, and it's *never* 20 m or 75 m.
> I'm unconvinced of this assertion and hold, in fact that it is in general
> demonstrably false.
And I'm unconvinced that your opinions hold anymore weight than mine,
Kim. But I've been willing to cite actual events and instances to
prove my case, not just invoke the 'because I said so' argument.
I've played in lots of contests with some world-class operators.
These guys win contests. And I have never, ever, seen them or any of
the ops they have invited do what you describe. Such behavior is
anomalous. There have been ops uninvited from their stations, though,
for exactly the kind of behavior you describe.
> Hmmm... Given that this mirrors the overall electorate (and has
for most of
> the last 100 years) what can you deduce from it?
Given that, beyond the parallel of the apathy felt by many when the
few in power don't listen, nothing. Reminder: Link above.
> If the remaining 80% really wants the League to do something
different, and
> I mean *REALLY* wants a change, they effect that change in the bat of an
> eye. From my standpoint, just like most of the electorate, most hams
> couldn't care less.
I agree to some extent, but you're missing one key fact in this
argument: unlike the electorate you're so fond of comparing this to,
if you want to change the ARRL, you have to pay for the privilege.
Yes, just like any other organization. The ARRL is not special or
different in this regard.
It
wasn't so long ago that a 3-Lander running for a seat in the ARRL was
driven out by a 'conflict of interest' argument that to my eyes,
didn't hold a lot of water. The bigger issue appears to be that he
wasn't willing to tow the old League line and made the mistake of
letting folks know ahead of time, so they found a way to avoid letting
him in. Whether that's completely the case or not doesn't matter as
much as the way it was handled by the ARRL and the impression it left
with a lot of amateurs.
This reads a bit like innuendo. Can you be specific?
> P.S.: You want some real fun? Organize an AM-only contest!
No, thanks. I don't like radio contests and feel no need to prove I
can do better or score higher than someone else. Amateur radio is a
hobby to me, not a competition. And considering the view of contesters
held by many, I doubt it would advance the cause of AM. Likely just
the opposite. It's more fun to me to work on the NEAR-Fest hamfest
event, giving back to others rather than the 'take take, me me'
approach. No doubt as old-fashioned as the gear and mode I enjoy
operating. (o:
I like old gear, too, and someday hope to put some of my Dad's old
gear back on the air. But good contesters know it's not all about
taking: good contesters know it's ultimately about cooperation.
Again, you have mischaracterized contesting. You can't win if don't
work anyone and you can't win with busted calls. It sounds like you
have found in ham radio what you like to do and for that I am happy.
And, I used the term AM contest a bit loosely. I'm thinking more of
something in the spirit of SKN, and from what I've seen already, such
events already exist. I say wallow in them!
73,
Kim Elmore, N5OP
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