yeah, more people please, and oh, please, this time, let's try to keep those mails short, and try to answer it all in one place, although I know it's not easy.
P.S: you may be hard-headed, but probably not as much as I am ;) KKRT On Thu, Feb 01, 2007 at 11:23:05PM +0100, Karel Demeyer wrote: > Could we get some more ppl in this debate ? Tomorrow evening I leave > for a holiday but I don't want this discussion to die to early. > > Karel. > > PS: tell me if I sound too hard-headed > > 2007/2/1, Karel Demeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > 2007/2/1, Youness Alaoui <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 06:47:55PM +0100, Karel Demeyer wrote: > > > > 2007/1/30, Youness Alaoui <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > I like the idea, but I don't like the fact that we would loose the > > > > > inline spaces info, it was a good feature and > > > > > I'm sure (even the poll says so) that many people will like that > > > > > better. > > > > > I wanted to talk with you on msn about this to make sure I'm not > > > > > saying things wrong, but I'll try to give my 2 > > > > > cents here and now. > > > > > > > > I still think the inline spaces info has it's pros, and it looks nice > > > > too. But, I only thought about 1 think for that design and that was > > > > the spaces info; I forgot to see it in a bigger whole. (the idea > > > > could be reused in some plugin) Now I took a view on all "user related > > > > info and settings" and tried to integrate it to make it all > > > > overseeable, easy and WLM-like for a novice user and powerfull and > > > > still clutter-less for an advanced user. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I also think the inline spaces has its pros and I wouldn't want to > > > remove that... Do you think there's a > > > way to put merge the two ideas together in some way ? > > > > Well, I like it but it's bad for the user experience as a whole. I'd > > have it as a plugin option or something but not next to a window that > > shows the same information. We'd better go for sane defaults then for > > all kind of options I guess. > > > > > > > > > > I think the ccard mockup you put was great and I like it like that, > > > > > but as a ccard, nothing more. I agree that > > > > > there are too many informational windows, but I don't think too many > > > > > is bad, too little or too exploded is bad, > > > > > if it's the same info, shown differently, it's ok. the ccard should > > > > > have : > > > > > nick,psm,,dp,blog info. No need for more info. > > > > > > > > Shouldn't the ccard be the window that shows the info you can show > > > > about that user, instead of only beaing a place to find > > > > blogposts/photos? So, if aMSN has more advanced info, show that info > > > > for more advanced users in that spot ? > > > > > > > > > > ok, well, that's where we didn't understand each other. For me, the ccard > > > is actually the 'spaces info' window, > > What's so special/important about MSN Spaces that it deserves it's own > > window ? Isn't the ccard more a "user properties window" in WLM too, > > the place where you can find more info about a user? > > > not the 'user properties' window.. the 'user properties' info should > > > actually go in the 'properties' window :p > > > that's why. I understand why you would want to group all that info in one > > > place, but I think that the > > > novice/average user wouldn't want to see *all* that info. I'm sure that a > > > ccard with everything we have on a > > > user will just make the user close the window and not understand. > > > > That's why my mockup doesn't show all info for a novice user. If you > > want more info, you'll have to press the "advanced" (or "more info") > > button. > > > > > I like the properties window because I think it's still simple while > > > showing a lot of info and is pretty useful. > > > > I think the properties window now is quite overwhelming. The window > > has allmost as most settings /data in 1 window then IE6's settings > > window (I hope you agree with me that's a bad UI example ;)). > > > > > If we are to add the info from there and put it in the ccard, it would > > > become too clutered, not just for the > > > average user, but also for the advanced user. > > > The ccard doesn't have a : > > > email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > nickname : this is the nick > > > psm : this is the psm > > > last login : date > > > last message : date > > > last logout : date > > > > > > it just has the data, without the label telling what is what because it > > > is made so simple that a single look > > > should tell you what is what, you see the blogs, the nickname and psm and > > > you know what it is without the need > > > of the "nickname" or 'psm" label in front of it. > > > If we are to add all the info from the properties window, we'd have to > > > add last login/logout/message, which are > > > 3 dates, and 3 dates would mean nothing without the 'header' label, in > > > which case it will become cluttered. if > > > we have a label for those dates, it makes no sense to not have any header > > > for the nickname/psm/etc.. which means > > > > Well, the mockup (and WLM's cards) also have a caption for blogposts > > and photos because you can't know what it is as a new user without the > > label. THe nickname/PSM/dp is cristal clear because they're already > > on the CL and it's the data to identify who's card it is you're > > looking at. THe date's etc all have their label in my mockup for the > > advanced "card". > > > > > > > the window will get really huge, and it will become unreadable for the > > > user. > > > > The window wouldn't be very big. Do you find it too big like it is in > > my mockup? I don't think it will be much bigger if implemented. It's > > smaller then the properties window and all settings should be > > accesible from it. To change the custom nicks etc, a new window will > > open and I think that's ok because it will then only show if the user > > wants to change it or look what he set up, which is not something you > > do every 5 minutes. > > > > > I think this is still not good even if that info is only shown in the > > > 'advanced' mode... > > > > > > I prefer to see the ccard as a "spaces info" (we could put that as a > > > title in the ccard info, to avoid > > > confusion) which is why it should be very simple. we should really start > > > calling it 'spaces info' instead of > > > ccard because ccard is just a nickname taken from WLM. > > > > > > I hope we understand each other here. > > > > I *understand* you but I don't get it why you want a seperate window > > for spaced info only. Why wouldn't you put this in your properties > > window too ? because WLM users expect a ccard ? Well, if that's your > > only problem, it could be solved by putitng it in a properties window, > > and making that look like a ccard ... well, that's my mockup :). But > > I guess you have some other objections :). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the mockup, you left the two arrows to 'switch ccard'. I always > > > > > thought the idea of 'switching the ccard' was > > > > > stupid and I would have voted to remove it and leave just a single > > > > > window, not a double sided window. I don't > > > > > know if you'd like this idea but I'll tell anyway, how about all > > > > > those 'extra' informations be put in the > > > > > reverse side of the ccard, like the phone numbers, last login, last > > > > > message, client id, etc.. > > > > > that's optional, it can be left out, but I'm just trying to follow > > > > > your idea of "all the info in the same > > > > > place". > > > > The switch buttons where a mistake, they should be removed :). I > > > > started this mockup from teh old ccards and forgot to remove 'm. > > > > > > > yeah, I knew you forgot them, which is why I said, I wonder if you'd like > > > the idea of actually using the reverse > > > instead of removing it... > > > it was just an idea in order to have all the info in the ccard, because > > > we won't be able to put it all in 'one > > > page' without cluttering the info. > > > > I think the "back" is a bad idea as we can't make the card look like > > it "turns" when you press that button and (for my mockup), we have > > more info to show. THe back in WLM is like the "advanced" info we'd > > show. ONly, we'll have more. We could howerer, have an "expand" > > button on that same spot (a little unobtrusive one though) to make it > > easy for user coming from WLM. like a ">>" button or something, what > > image should be shown should be thought of then. > > > > > > > > > > > My opinion is that the properties window should NOT disappear, it's a > > > > > nice window with many useful information > > > > > about a user, and with its multiple tabs we can get access to the > > > > > alarm settings, previous DPs and customize the > > > > > user, nickname/psm/color/dp some advanced otpions, move him from > > > > > groups, etc.. it's useful I think. > > > > If we have a window to show nickname/psm, why not having an option > > > > there to tweak the settings about it ? Same for DP ...? > > > > > > > > > > it's a bit complicated I think, although I may be wrong. when you tweak > > > such a setting, it isn't a field that > > > you just edit. we're talking about custom nick, custom psm, custom > > > friendly name, custom dp, custom color... > > > if it was something internal, like WLM does when storing the adress of > > > someone, or the notes for example, then > > > it's ok, you just edit those notes, but in the case of the custom nick > > > (without talking about all those other > > > custom things) you can't just have a field and edit it because you're not > > > really editing the nickname, you're > > > either setting or unsetting a custom nick, which itself can be made of > > > $nick/$email variables. > > > assuming it's an entry, you can't just click on it and > > > backspace/backspace to edit the nickname, you should end > > > up with an empty entry if no custom nick is set, and then you set it to > > > something. > > > same applies for the other custom options. > > > > This seems like a matter of words. Maybe the icon I choose is bad and > > it should be more like a "configure" or "options" button. The buttons > > should have a sane tooltip therefor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > My original idea, and I just found out that WLM does kind of the same > > > > > (a bit differently though). > > > > > My idea was to have the ccard as ou had it in the 'std' mockup, and > > > > > have, instead of the 'advanced' button you > > > > > had, have a "Edit contact" which would open the properties window. > > > > > I think, with NWM's mockup, a "More info" button would also be > > > > > suitable. > > > > > In WLM, it's acutally a pencil icon and only in the reverse side of > > > > > the ccard, and it's tooltip says "edit this > > > > > contact's information" which opens up some kind of properties window, > > > > > where you can enter > > > > > name/address/phones/nickname/website/birthdays/etc.. and a 'notes' > > > > > tab :s > > > > > > > > You can only change *this socio-demographic data* in WLM, right ? We > > > > have more info to put on a ccard, so why put it in another window ? > > > > If you want the properties screen to be the "edit contact" screen, you > > > > shouldn't use it to display other data too because then it's more then > > > > an "edit contact" screen. (joke: It's like a filemanager that's also > > > > a webbrowser, those tasks are better split ;) ) > > > > > > > > > > "we have more info.. why put it in another window" -> I'd say because we > > > have too much info that would be > > > totally useless for a user to 'quickly access' that info. you usually > > > don't want to quickly access that info, > > > although I may be wrong... actually what we want to quickly access is > > > already in the tooltip.. no ? > > > > That's why I don't want the advanced info to be shown when you open > > the ccard (aka "user properties card"). > > I'd like to remove some info from our tooltip too. The tooltip is so > > big that you have to scan it for some time to find the info you need. > > I don't think "last message" info is checked very much by most users, > > this seems like more advanced info to me. > > > > > "if you want the properties screen to be the edit contact, you shouldn't > > > use it to display other data" -> no, I > > > think it has to contain that data too because as explained above about > > > the difficulty of the custom nick, it's > > > the same thing, you can't edit something if you can't get access to that > > > info at the same time. Also, it's a > > > "properties" window, which means it shows the properties and it allows > > > you to edit them and more, it's not a > > > "edit contact info" window.. > > > at least, that's how i see it, others might see it differently.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So this is my 2 cents. a button to open the properties window is > > > > > good, the 'advanced' idea is also good but I > > > > > wouldn't want to put too much info in that single window. > > > > Well, you would put it in teh properties window ... so you want it in > > > > 1 window. If you find the ccard a bit too small, it could be made a > > > > (little !) bit bigger by default but we shouldn't overwhelm new users > > > > with all teh advanced options IMO. Eventually we can have an option > > > > to make the ccards I propose always expanded for power users ... Just > > > > ideas! > > > > > > > > > > I think having it 'advanced' always for power users is useless, it's > > > saving one click once in a while for the > > > user but cluttering amsn with yet another option (unless using powertool > > > plugin). > > > I think the ccard is small because it should only contain spaces info, I > > > do think it's a bit too small, and as > > > you say it can be made a (little !) bit bigger... but it would still not > > > be fit enough to contain all the > > > necessary info, don't you think ? > > I said this (maybe have an option) because I thought most of our > > developpers wouldn't want the advanced options not to be shown by > > default, but I'm against an extra option. This advanced info isn't > > something one (with a live that's worth something) would check every 5 > > minutes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Karel. > > > > > > > > PS: what I write is my opinion, it's not *the preferable way* maybe > > > > > > How humble :) ;) > > > > I don't want to sound arrogant :) It was never my intention anyway. > > Again, these are just my thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KaKaRoTo > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 05:57:46PM +0100, Karel Demeyer wrote: > > > > > > 2007/1/30, Cristofaro Del Prete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > > > My 0.02: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Karel Demeyer ha scritto: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm working on a UI proposal for the ccard's/properties window. > > > > > > > > Firstly I want to make some things clear: > > > > > > > > * this proposal gets rid of "inline" ccards, they were (imo) a > > > > > > > > nice > > > > > > > > idea UI-wise to show the data but we have more data to show and > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > should make it all a bit more clear and easier. > > > > > > > > * this proposal mostly works like the way youness implemented > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > ccards but tries to make the ccards more in a general "user > > > > > > > > properties > > > > > > > > screen" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, what do I propose: When a buddy icon is clicked, a ccard > > > > > > > > pops up, > > > > > > > > where it should pop up should be thought about as it is > > > > > > > > important > > > > > > > > interface-wise. A mockup for this ccard is in attachement. > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > ccard already shows a bit more data then WLM's; it shows the > > > > > > > > email > > > > > > > > addres, a button to change notes, a button to change alarms, an > > > > > > > > "advanced" button .... > > > > > > > > like we have now in the properties screen, everything on this > > > > > > > > ccard > > > > > > > > should have a right-click menu where one can choose "copy to > > > > > > > > clipboard". For the nickname, psm and display picture, there > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > be a "options" menu-item, clicking this opens another window > > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > onne can set custom DPs, or custom nicknames, custom color of a > > > > > > > > nickname etc... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clicking the advanced button makes the window in what I have in > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > other mockup. Firstly, it adds 3 "edit" buttons, one after > > > > > > > > nickname, > > > > > > > > psm, and one hovered on a corner op the dp. Clicking those > > > > > > > > buttons > > > > > > > > does the same as rightclicking the items and choosing "options". > > > > > > > > Another thing that happens when you click the "advanced" button > > > > > > > > (the > > > > > > > > button should stay pressed then), is the window growing bigger. > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > window should then show firstly some extra data of the user, > > > > > > > > and then > > > > > > > > allow for some other settings that are special for that user. > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > extra space will probably be a TK frame so it won't have that > > > > > > > > nice > > > > > > > > background, but that's not such a problem. I didn't add all > > > > > > > > options > > > > > > > > on my mockup, but you can check our properties window now to > > > > > > > > see what > > > > > > > > is needed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think the contact card should be used to show advanced > > > > > > > infos, or > > > > > > > to edit settings. I think it would be better to just have a > > > > > > > "preferences" button, in the left-bottom corner of the ccard, > > > > > > > that would > > > > > > > open the user properties windows. > > > > > > > This way there would be fast access to the advanced info (they > > > > > > > are in > > > > > > > the first tab), as well as *all* the user settings, instead of > > > > > > > just few > > > > > > > of them. > > > > > > The thing that I try is to put all the settings there in teh > > > > > > expanded > > > > > > ccard so we won't need a properties screen anymore. Everyhting > > > > > > should > > > > > > be on teh ccard or a window openened with a button on the expanded > > > > > > ccard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do I propose this ? Well, we have to much different ways > > > > > > > > to show > > > > > > > > user data: I wanted to add inline spaces data (ok, my bad), we > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > have ccards, we have a properties window and we have a > > > > > > > > tooltip... this > > > > > > > > should be reduced imo. I think the tooltip has too much > > > > > > > > information > > > > > > > > right now. It should have dp/nick/psm/music and not more I > > > > > > > > guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd also add the contact status, because, when using the small > > > > > > > display > > > > > > > pictures in place of the contact icon, it can be difficult to see > > > > > > > if a > > > > > > > contact is online or offline. > > > > > > Well, overlaying a status-icon on the ccard's DP should do this. > > > > > > But > > > > > > this should also be fixed in teh new CL. sthe status icons should > > > > > > be > > > > > > overlayed on the buddy icon, so when the buddyicon is changed into a > > > > > > dp, there should still be a status emblem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About this proposal, nick/psm are truncated but they should > > > > > > > > have a > > > > > > > > tooltip with the full string. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question now: what's your opinion about this ? What would > > > > > > > > you like > > > > > > > > differently ? ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Karel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS: I don't have much time now but I did this as a spare time > > > > > > > > project > > > > > > > > between my study-hours; If I don't respond to e-mail quickly, > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > doesn't mean I'm not interested in your replies thus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. 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