Hi Alvaro, Thanks for sharing your ideas with us. But I don't think the bounties are a good idea, it makes sense but it's such a complicated system, and we don't want to add complications, do we ? I proposed something similar a while ago, but noone cared about it, because noone cares about all that complication for a little money... I mean, if you have someone who works and gets 3000$ a month in salary, what would 200$ do to him? nothing, it's (almost) worthless, but to us, 200$ is still a big bounty, so why would he go through the trouble of doing it just for that little money... we have others (many) developers who don't want any money, like Phil for example, who I begged to just consider the fact that he could get money for his excellent work, but he refuses because it's a hobby, not a job, it's for fun, so money is out of the question.. Also, when someone votes for how much money a feature is worth, he needs to know how much money we already got, because if we get 10$ a month, they you would vote in terms of 1 to 2 $ a feature, if we get 100$, you could vote with 10$, but if we get for example 10 000$ a month, then voting in hundreds of dollars makes more sense than voting with a 1$... and as you know, to avoid problems/complications, it's better not to disclose how much money the ads generate...
Also, the time needed to build up such a system and to get exactly how much money on what feature is going to be too much. Also, what about "msn spaces", that's a feature, but Karel worked on it, I worked on it, vivia worked on it, and Phil (I think) worked on it. OIM support, I worked on it, Phil and billiob too... vivia did some bug fixing there too iirc. so, how would we share that bounty money for that feature.. it becomes quite complicated. I think with gifts it's a whole different perspective, if a 200$ is worthless for someone who gets 3000$ salary per month, then a gift of 20$ might be so much more valuable.. I know that if I get 200$ I'll just spend it on food or at the end of the month, I'll say "wow, where did I spend it" and I'll forget about it, but if I get a t-shirt with amsn logo on it, it will be so cool :) Phil and others said they would approve gifts too but refuse money... So the question is like you said : who deserves gifts... I thought about it, at first, I was thinking about "one big gift to the one who worked the most", then I took a quick look at the stats and found out I was the most active, then I thought, damn, if I buy myself a big gift with that money, I'll be dead in no time... lol, so I thought, ok, many gifts for the most active devels.. then I thought.. humm, that's not really nice to the 6th most active if only 5 get gifts... and what about NWM and his patches and help in the forums, and what about Gus and his skin ? what about Cristofaro, just new but already giving so much ? so I though, ok, small gifts to everyone, so everyone will be happy.. then I thought, ok, but how will it motivate people to work harder for amsn, if everyone gets the same thing, so that's where I thought we could give different categories of prizes, small for everyone, medium for the top devels, and *maybe* one big being drawn randomly to one of the devels.. then I thought, ok, what if this 'random winner' is someone who never committed a thing, didn't write any mail, didn't do shit... would it be fair ? so I thought, ok, the big prize could be given to one of the top develops randomly selected, this would make it fair... when you look at it, in many shops, you get a XXX$ bonus in commission if you did the most sells in the week or something, so everyone works hard, but only one gets it, that's how it works, it doesn't mean you're the best salesperson, maybe you're just the one with most luck because one client came and wanted to buy a LOT of things and you were the one there to help... or you could be the bitch who steals the client from the other salespersons... but that's how it is, I'm sure that developer X wouldn't complain if the stats show him wrong, right ? best luck next time.. what happens when you loose the sales commission because of 1$ difference in the total, it's unfair, but that's life.. About what you said about translations, I agree, I also thought that you wouldn't deserve a gift (sorry) because you didn't really actively code some important feature of the next release, I mean important features are voice clips, oims, spaces and the new CL, that's the main ones, and you didn't do anything, so i think it would be unfair, but vivia said that translations are important, I said (as a joke) that I only use amsn in english, and she said that she never uses voice clips, but still other users will use voice clips and users will also use the translations, and she was totally right. You only committed from amsn-translations mailing list, you didn't translate yourself, but it still is work that needs to be done by someone and you're the one doing it. It might sound unfair to some people, but you still do your share of work and it's better than having a total inactivity like some other slackers in the team :p so I salute that and the stats show you as active so I think you deserve it! if someone is not happy about it, sorry, your problem, I can't do anything about it, life sux! but hey, as a consolation prize, you still get a free t-shirt (or whatever other small gift) so be happy about it and shut up! As Karel said today on PM, some old quote says "when you get a horse for free, you don't need to check his teeth" which is the same here, you get a free gift, so even if it's a small gift, be happy about it and don't complain.. which is the reason why I originally decided to give small gifts to everyone (as mmany people as possible) Now you gave me an idea, we could have a poll (no cheating please), where we could vote for the top 5 devels in our opinion, we can use svn log, etc.. to see who did what, we know who did what because of the ML too, and we know who's really active by looking at forum posts count and who worked on which feature, who did what bugfix, etc... so we could have votes like that, this way if we get a majority of people voting for person X as someone who is considerably active to our eyes, even if he/she has no commits, then I suppose that person is still elligeable.. we could, this way, decide on who deserves the medium size gifts... Finally... you said why only for 0.97? yes, people did great job in the past.. but in the past we had no money!!! that's why... I gave two stats if you read my mail carefully, first for 0.97, second stats on svn since the first day we added ads to the website... the income was generated since that day and people who worked hard from that day should get the money... if we want to give a gift to anyone who helped in the past, then we won't be able to offer anything worth more than 1$ because it would be too many gifts to too many people... Also, we never promised "hey, do this code and someday, if we ever get money, we'll give you something in return", but now we have ads, so we all know we get money so we all hope that the money won't go to waste.. also, if we go back, how far should we go back? who, in the past, helped the most ? how can we judge that ? no need to add more complications.. let's make it simple... money is used on gifts for those who helped starting from the day we started receiving money.... and btw, your bounty thing can't apply either for those who helped in the past, right? If anyone disagrees with this way of thinking ? please say so... p.s.: you said "if someone doesn't like his gift, he could say it's unfair", well, that's exactly why I created that wiki page (http://amsn-project.net/wiki/Gift_ideas DAMN IT NOONE MODIFIED IT:@) and I said, when someone wins, he could have a lot of choices and he could choose the gift that he likes the most in the list, so he can get something he really appreciates! Anyways, sorry for the huge mail, but such subjects need to be clear in the minds of all and you know I need a lot of text to get the idea out of my head and to be understood by others (and hope I'm understood :s) Any more comments.. again.. no hesitation please! Take care! KaKaRoTo On Fri, Feb 02, 2007 at 11:05:41PM +0100, Álvaro J. Iradier wrote: > I disagree. I think gifts are not the problem, but how to decide who > will be given the gift. Much has been said about this, and was one of > the main reasons for not accepting money for AMSN. > > For example, if we say: "more active commiters". Well, I do many > commits, but just translations lately, so someone not receiving a good > gift might think it's not fair. Or maybe I commit only translations, > and I don't do active development lately, but updating translations is > also a needed job, as well as mailing list administration (I receive > many "aproval pending" mails every day), so I might think, why is not > my job worth a gift? What about skin artists, or translators? Or forum > colaborators? Web page mantainer? > > Also, why only for 0.97? Many people did GREAT work in the past, and > many will do in the future. Don't they deserve a gift or an > oportunity? > > If gifts or money is going to be given to developers it should be done > like bounties. I know what I'm proposing is complicated, but > developers or users should vote for features (not only development), > like, (just examples): > > - Make a new mac skin > - Make the skins section for the web page > - Complete the langXX translation which is missing XX strings > - Implement feature XXXX in AMSN > - Fix bug XXXX > > We would need a secret but safe voting system. I guess something > similar must exist already. For every bounty, developers should vote > (secretly) for a prize, during a period (for example during a day), in > $, and a time or deadline (for example, implementing XXX should cost 2 > months) . The prize and time for the bounty would be the average of > the voted prize and time. > > Once a person or team applies for the bounty, the bounty is closed. > The work must be finished before the time or deadline. Once finished, > developers will vote for this job (secret, again). They will vote > > a) NOT WORKING -> The work is not accepted until it's fixed to work as > specified > b) BAD -> The work is accepted, but the prize is -xx%. The person/team > can work to fix this. > c) GOOD -> The work is accepted, the full prize is given > d) EXCELLENT -> The work is accepted, prize plus xx% is given for an > excellent work. > > Greets. > > On 2/2/07, Philippe Valembois - Phil > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > I just want to say what Youness already knows : > > gift are so better than money !! > > It will be sth personalized :d > > Anyway, a meeting isn't possible : we have too many constraints : holidays, > > homework, moving... So many... :( > > Maybe when we will be a huge community with many sponsors... :p > > Phil > > > > Le Friday 02 February 2007 17:25, Youness Alaoui a écrit: > > > Yes, that's what Alvaro always wanted, but if we were to do something like > > > that, we would have to wait a few years just to get enough money for the > > > plane tickets... planes are so expensive now.. + not everyone can because > > > some of us work, so it will be a though call... > > > While I think we can have a gift and keep it as a souvenir and everyone > > > can > > > get a t-shirt etc... and that would cost less than one airplane ticket :p > > > > > > KKRT > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 02, 2007 at 05:19:02PM +0100, Karel Demeyer wrote: > > > > I have another idea for a way to spend the money: what about > > > > organiseing an event for aMSN developpers ? Like a > > > > week-during-summit/hackfest ? The money can be used to buy airplane > > > > tickets and accomodation. It should be researched what's the best and > > > > most profitable place then etc ... > > > > > > > > Karel. > > > > > > > > 2007/2/2, Youness Alaoui <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > Happy you guys like the idea, now all we need is to have a real list > > > > > of > > > > > good ideas.. NWM, you want to add a section to the wiki with "amsn > > > > > tshirt text ideas" in it and add those you said, and Karel said (hey > > > > > you have to work a little if you want to get a t-shirt :p lol) ? thx > > > > > > > > > > p.s.: I just remembered that NWM is supposed to be the wiki > > > > > maintainer > > > > > :@ what a great job, youhou!! lol j/k :p > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KKRT > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 02, 2007 at 11:21:55AM -0300, Gustavo A. Diaz wrote: > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for Gifts than money. I think that is a better prize for > > > > > > Devs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Youness Alaoui escribio': > > > > > > >:( > > > > > > > > > > > > > >thanx for turning down the proposal :p > > > > > > >well, I don't think money is a good idea because it will end up > > > > > > > being spent on something like food most probably :p > > > > > > >but as I said, you could get to choose your gift, + even if it's a > > > > > > > cheap gift and you could have bought something better with that > > > > > > > money + your own, it's not the same as "a gift offered by amsn" > > > > > > >Also, we could save on postage by making the 'winners' buy the > > > > > > >gift, > > > > > > > then reimburse them later the amount spent on the gift... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >KKRT > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Fri, Feb 02, 2007 at 07:32:32PM +1300, majinsoftware wrote: > > > > > > >>I would say that money would be the best option so then you could > > > > > > >> buy the prize and save on postage, or you could buy something > > > > > > >> else > > > > > > >> if you didnt like > > > > > > >>what you would of got. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >>------ Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web > > > > > > >> services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated > > > > > > >> technology to make your job easier. > > > > > > >>Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache > > > > > > >> Geronimo > > > > > > >> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat= > > > > > > >>121642 _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >>Amsn-devel mailing list > > > > > > >>Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > >>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >----- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web > > > > > > > services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated > > > > > > > technology to make your job easier. > > > > > > >Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache > > > > > > > Geronimo > > > > > > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=1 > > > > > > >21642 _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >Amsn-devel mailing list > > > > > > >Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >--- */Gustavo A. Di'az/ * > > > > > > GDNet Projects > > > > > > www.gdnet.com.ar <http://www.gdnet.com.ar> > > > > > > Prof. y Soporte Te'cnico UTN > > > > > > www.frba.utn.edu.ar <http://www.frba.utn.edu.ar/> > > > > > > (Universidad Tecnolo'gica Nacional) > > > > > > *Cel:* (011)15-5526-1264 > > > > > > FirmaEmail > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >---- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, > > > > > > security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to > > > > > > make your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server > > > > > > v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > > > > > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121 > > > > > >642 _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Amsn-devel mailing list > > > > > > Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >-- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, > > > > > security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to > > > > > make > > > > > your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 > > > > > based on Apache Geronimo > > > > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=12164 > > > > >2 _______________________________________________ > > > > > Amsn-devel mailing list > > > > > Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, > > > > security? > > > > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job > > > > easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on > > > > Apache > > > > Geronimo > > > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Amsn-devel mailing list > > > > Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > > > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job > > > easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache > > > Geronimo > > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Amsn-devel mailing list > > > Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job > > easier. > > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > > _______________________________________________ > > Amsn-devel mailing list > > Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > > > > -- > (:===========================================:) > Alvaro J. Iradier Muro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier. > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > Amsn-devel mailing list > Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier. Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
