On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 at 07:50, Alun Davies <adav...@ripe.net> wrote: > I’m out of office till 22 August. Any RIPE Labs related queries can be > sent to l...@ripe.net and one of my colleagues will get back to you. >
irony - three unsolicited messages on the same subject - appropriate too > Jeroen, > > ist's hard to distinguish between straight statements and serious > questions on one hand and sarcasm, rhetorical questions and strawman > arguments on the other hand in written communication, especially when there > sometimes seems to be a "mode switch". I'm trying to respond seriously and > to be explicit about how I understood your statements. > > > > Am 14.08.22 um 10:26 schrieb jer...@hackersbescherming.nl: > > My bad! I assumed that when u create or follow a training course that u > want > > to learn or teach a way that ALWAYS works. > > > > I'm unsure whether you meant that seriously or sarcastically. > > > > Of course the assumption is wrong. Training is a way of improving your > ability to do something, not of learning something that always works. A > football team will train to learn to play better and win more games, not to > learn a away that will let them win ALWAYS. Similarly, an abuse desk team > will train to learn ways of detecting abuse earlier, to distinguish between > true and false abuse accusations, to use tools and automation to focus > their human attention on the tricky problems instead of doing rote work, > etc. None of that will guarantee that there will be no abuse from their > network, but it will likely reduce the amount by catching it quicker and > making it unattractive for spammers. Of course, that's the theory, but my > experience from the other side of the fence is that quick and swift action > is the primary thing that reduces the amount of spam, and it should work > equally well and on a larger volume on the provider side. > > > > > > With my assumption of the below. > > To solve the abuse problem u either need a system that can hold the > abuser > > responsible or and that would be even better u need a system where nobody > > would grow an interest to even try to abuse > > > > Did you forget a period here? As such, this sentence sort of makes > sense, although I would not strive to "solve" the abuse problem but to > reduce the volume and impact on recipients. Holding abusers responsible may > be one way (although it would be necessary to define what that means). > > > > A system where nobody would grow an interest to even try abuse is > impossible, we know from the non-effectiveness of capital punishment > against murder etc. that there is no effective deterrant that keeps people > from wanting to do and actually doing horrible things. The only "effective" > way would be to lock up everybody as a safety measure. That's like blocking > access to port 25, surely it keeps out the spam, but would have some > undesirable side effects. > > > > So, this is not what I want. > > > > and when u start thinking into > > this direction all the other "BIG" problems in the world will become > easy to > > solve. (Yes u read this right they are easy to solve, we currently just > use > > the wrong systems (all over the world) to guide and lead us) > > Is this a strawman argument of the form "we should not try to solve > problem X because we can't solve problem Y and that's even bigger"? That's > faulty logic, I assume written tongue-in-cheek. > > > > When u would have a good system then a large portion or maybe even all of > > the current training material would be irrelevant since it is based on > the > > current system that doesn't provide a solution for the problem. > > > > That's an assumption about the training material (which I haven't seen > and know nothing about) and the current system that I don't share. It seems > to imply that there is no way of reducing the amount of spam in the current > system, which is IMO not true. > > > > I do think that the current system is lacking in some areas but is > overall usable, and that it is possible to reduce abuse within the > framework of the current system. Usable training material would teach what > can be done at one point (one provider) to achive this without requiring > undue cooperation from other players or changing the system. That is, > actually doable changes to one's operation to reduce the amount of abuse. > > > > > > What u are saying is that when I create a training that teaches 1+1=11 > and > > someone out there wants to learn this that this would be a usefull > training > > .... (maybe for someone to do on his own but not for a global/regional > > solution). > > Looks like a strawman argument again. I'm not proposing that training > should teach nonsense and that someone out there could want to learn > nonsense, so this would be useful training. What I was saying is that a > training course (which I presumed teaches something actually useful in > reducing the spam load) can only be useful for organizations that want to > get closer to that goal. If an organization does not share that goal (or > has different main goals), they most likely would not want or need the > training. > > > > It doesn't matter to which group u belong to, in the end we all belong to > > the same group called Humans.... > > We need a fair worldwide system where power is removed from all > > individuals!!!! (Since power allways creates a form of abuse) > > > > Looks like a hyperbole/strawman argument again: "If we can't solve the > worldwide power abuse issues, we should not even try to fight local abuse". > Faulty logic. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Jeroen > > Cheers, > > Hans-Martin > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or > change your subscription options, please visit: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg > -- > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change > your subscription options, please visit: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/anti-abuse-wg > -- Alan Levin ---------------------------------- +27 21 4882820 (ddi)
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