I could agree with most of what you say about organic foods, but I'm
not sure that what
you regard as silliness is the same as the silliness I observe. In
conventional food
standards it is far more silly ---and dangerous to health---than
what goes on in
organics. I speak as an organic inspector and author of Harvey v
Veneman. Most of my
life was spent working in conventional apple orchards where the
prevailing view is that
Guthion---or whatever---is perfectly safe because the manufacturers
say so, and the feds
have not contradicted them until very recently. Interestingly, the
Fruit Growers News
which I have been reading for more than 40 years, has within the
past couple of years
turned away from their contemptuous attitude toward organic
orcharding, and now has
positive and helpful coverage.
--- Steve Demuth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kurt,
>
> I actually agree with you that you, and other farmers, are probably
> better served by the personal relationship than they would be by
> certification alone (nothing, I might add, prevents one from
> benefiting from both). My point was that the consumer's trust is
> based mostly on the good feelings from the personal relationship,
> even though there is no demonstrable correlation between this and the
> things that people claim to value about food production methods.
>
> And the physician example is in fact perfectly apropos. Firstly,
> because physicians are certified, and required to periodically
> re-certify in their chose area of practice. I suspect it matters a
> great deal to most people that their doctor actually graduated from
> medical school, finished a residency, and is regularly re-certified
> in their speciality.
>
> Secondly, it is true that people do choose physicians on
> recommendations, and personal trust. And, it's a lousy way to choose
> them. Having been involved research on clinical outcomes, I can say
> quite certainly that the fact that a physician appears competent,
> caring and trustworthy is very poorly correlated with whether or not
> they produce above or below average results for their patients. Many
> well-loved physicians are, statistically at least, a very bad bet for
> your health.
>
> This of course hardly bolsters my case for certification. Despite
> our best efforts to certify physician competence, there is still a
> huge variance in quality. However, there is an important difference
> between organic certification and doctor certification: organic
> certification certifies methods, not knowledge alone. There is a
> movement afoot in the medical field to start doing this with
> hospitals (if you can't verify that every post heart-attack patient
> is getting the most proven effective drug regimen, you may lose your
> blessing as a cardiac care center); organic already does this with
> horticultural practice.
>
> All of this is not to say that I think organic is an altogether great
> thing. I don't actually like the direction that organic has taken in
> the last 20 years; many of the regulations in the current
> certification are to my mind just plain wrong headed. And I
> certainly think that a local, ecologically-minded agriculture is
> preferable in many ways to a distant, organically certified one.
>
> But, how am I know to that my local grower is following best
> horticultural, pesticide, and ecological practice. Trust? Not
> alone. On this one I'm with Ronald Reagan, "trust but verify." That
> is the value of certification.
>
> Which bring me back to my starting point: this isn't an either
> or. Can't there be a certification program for ecologically sound
> agriculture that steers clear of the silliness in the organic
> standards, and which tells me something useful about what is
going on the farm?
>
> At 02:18 PM 3/11/2007, you wrote:
> >Fellow Growers,
> >
> >I think that Steve's conclusion about the gullibility of consumers is a
> >little misdirected. I have found that what consumers (people)
really value
> >and desire in America is personal relationships. Certification may well
> >serve and be necessary for the 900 mile "local" model as well as the box
> >stores but I believe that it has been born out of the realization of these
> >retailers that they must somehow compete with the consumer
desire to have a
> >personal relationship with a person that they trust. I view the situation
> >as being similar to having a physician. One generally chooses a personal
> >physician not based on the fact that they have a PhD from a prestigious
> >university and scored well on their finals, but rather on the
recommendation
> >and endorsements from others who have established trusting personal
> >relationships with that physician. Defining consumer trust may be mostly
> >subjective, but it is very real. To a retailer, it manifests the bottom
> >line. I feel much more confident building our retail farm business on our
> >ability to create, build, and maintain personal relationships with the
> >consumers that we serve (and we do this successfully with 10 of
thousands of
> >customers) as opposed to trusting our future business growth to a
> >bureaucratic regulatory certification program. Indeed, as growers we must
> >always endeavor to do our job correctly in order to produce safe and
> >nutritious food, but it is the personal relationship that people
really want
> >and desire. And it is this reality, I believe, that will
solidify and grow
> >the retail farm market consumer spending share that is being aggressively
> >sought after by the box stores and supermarkets.
> >
> >
> >Kurt W. Alstede
> >General Manager
> >Alstede Farms, LLC
> >P. O. Box 278
> >Chester, New Jersey 07930
> >United States of America
> >
> >Tel. 908-879-7189
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >On Behalf Of Steve Demuth
> >Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 2:34 PM
> >To: Apple-Crop
> >Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Time article
> >
> >People often do trust things they are familiar with. Unfortunately,
> >they do this without much analysis of whether this is wise. That
> >people trust locally grown and marketed produce says nothing
> >whatsoever about the nutritional, economic or ecological bona fides
> >of such product. That can only be done by well enforced
> >certification programs. And that, whatever the faults of organic
> >certification (and there are certainly many), is the real benefit of
> >the organic label.
> >
> >So, while I am a great proponent for consuming locally grown produce,
> >I think that Kurt's endorsement below points out mostly the
> >gullibility of consumers, not anything virtuous about local
> >production. Even the "petroleum miles" benefit claimed in the Time
> >piece is not necessarily as obvious as it seems. If one hauls
> >30,000lbs of apples cross country (say, 3,000 miles) in a
> >semi-trailer, that can easily burn 600 gallons of fuel. But, suppose
> >2000 consumers drive out to their local U-pick an average distance of
> >10 miles round trip to get an average of 15 lbs of apples
> >each. That's thte same 30,000lbs of product. Want to bet which uses
> >more petroleum? In fact, the consumers would have to average 33+
> >miles/gallon to beat the truckload - highly unlikely with today's
> >cars. And if the local producer is delivering to local markets,
> >rather than running a U-pick? The economics probably favor the local
> >produce in this case, assuming an efficient and truly local route,
> >but the margin will whither rapidly if they are delivering partial
> >loads with 200+ mile round trips.
> >
> >And, as for the certainty a consumer may feel that a local grower
> >from whom they buy personally will be attentive to safe use of
> >pesticides and sound land use - a clean farm storefront, firm
> >handshake and welcome smile no more assure this than good manners
> >make used car salesmen honest. Most local growers do pay attention
> >to these things, of course, but then so do most organic growers
> >(particularly as they need to worry about inspections to assure that
> >they do). Again, the advantage to the consumer of the local grower
> >is more about perception than reality.
> >
> >My favorite analogy in this department is airplane travel. I don't
> >really care whether I know personally the mechanic who services the
> >next AirBus or Boeing that I get on. I do care that there are
> >certification programs for the mechanic, the airframe, the pilot, and
> >basically everything else to do with my flight. So too with
> >food. Again, organic has gone directions that I sincerely disagree
> >with, but I think the notion of certification is at it's core, a lot
> >more valuable to society than "a farmer you know and trust."
> >
> >
> >
> >At 08:42 AM 3/11/2007, you wrote:
> > >Hello Jon,
> > >
> > >You are right on as was the Time Article. In the final analysis, people
> > >trust the face and the person that they can see and touch...their local
> > >farmer. We have seen this to be the case in all of our direct marketing
> >and
> > >have cultivated it in all of our advertising and marketing
efforts. I was
> > >thrilled to see Time give this subject favorable front page attention.
> > >
> > >
> > >Kurt W. Alstede
> > >General Manager
> > >Alstede Farms, LLC
> > >P. O. Box 278
> > >Chester, New Jersey 07930
> > >United States of America
> > >
> > >Tel. 908-879-7189
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: [email protected]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >On Behalf Of Jon Clements
> > >Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 7:05 PM
> > >To: Apple-Crop
> > >Subject: Apple-Crop: Time article
> > >
> > >Although I am hesitant to fan any embers -- I know there are quite a
> > >few out there -- into flames, it might be worth your while to pick up
> > >the March 12th issue of Time magazine. There is a cover article on
> > >organic vs. 'buy local.' A couple quotes:
> > >
> > >"In the end I bought both apples (organic vs. 'conventional New York
> > >state local'). They were both good, although the California one had a
> > >mealy bit, possibly from it's journey." (Is the author English -- a
> > >"mealy bit?")
> > >
> > >"Eating locally also seems safer. Ted's (an upstate NY diversified
> > >producer) neighbors and customers can see how he farms. That
> > >transparency doesn't exist with, say, spinach bagged by a distant
> > >agribusiness. I help keep Ted in business, and he helps keep me fed
> > >-- and the elegance and sustainability of that exchange make more
> > >sense to me than gambling on faceless producers who stamp ORGANIC on
> > >a package thousands of miles from home."
> > >
> > >Now, I have been trying to fully explain the phenomenal direct-market
> > >sales many Massachusetts apple growers -- and I understand it was
> > >beyond MA too -- had last season. I know the weather was good, and
> > >that makes a huge difference, but I am starting to think the buy
>
=== message truncated ===
On another topic, the federal law governing organic foods was
recently amended by lobbyists hired by some manufacturers. This
will allow synthetic ingredients to be added to organic-labeled foods.
If this is important to you, please visit my website,
www.RestoreOrganicLaw.org
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