Hi <sc...@solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午2:49写道：
> > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote: > > > > > > > <sc...@solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午1:12写道： > > > > > > > No one is claiming anything here, everyone is paying a fair > > market price for > > > what they are using in a scare market. Owning an asset does > > not constitute a > > > crime. > > > > Being allocated IP addresses from a RIR does not constitute > > ownership of > > an asset, under any circumstances. > > > > > > Who decides this? All those asset purchase agreement wasn’t signed out of > > blue. > > Agreements made among men and women based on erroneous premises are no > more relevant that two people agreeing that the sky contains no stars; > either they are both blind, they are both fooling only themselves, or one > is dishonest, fooling the other, who is blind. And why make you the authority to decide what is asset what is not? Last time I check those power is with court. > > > > > > Number itself might not constitute asset. However registration in an > unique > > database surely is. > > > > Said registration comes with responsibilites as well as rights. Consider > it more a position of trust to manage the assets ethically. Such a > position can be revoked, if that trust is broken. That is up for the court to decide, it is uncharted territory if RIR have such power, I think one day, a court case somewhere in the world will decide as such and things will be more clear. > > > > > > > > > > > Just because you no longer get land for free from the west, > > doesn’t > > > mean anyone today leasing you a house in Bay Area evil. > > Capitalism rewards > > > those who come first, in any market. > > > > Capitalism, from my experience, rewards many of the worst > > qualities in > > mankind; greed, selfishness, and profit over all things. > > Unfettered, it > > will be civilization's undoing, ecologically. Meanwhile, the > > strong will > > simply continue to steal from the weak, and claim themselves > > pioneers. > > > > > > That is an accusation without base. Rich must be stealing from the poor, > a > > perfect communist revolution quote. > > Where you see accusation, I see only analysis from a lifetime of > observation and participation. > > > > > Most of market are started by pioneers—and some of them are become very > rich > > in the process—bill gates, Steve Jobs, for example. > > I suggest that you should contemplate the film "The Pirates of Silicon > Valley" for a bit of historical perspective on these two figures. You may > find that you just proved my point. No, I will not, I have my view on those two persons and you title yours—I don’t need some film to firm such view. > > > > > > You experience clearly is not shared in this society, > > To which society do you refer? > > > which form of society > > you are advocating? > > What makes you assume I am advocating for anything? I was simply refuting > your point that capitalism rewards pioneers. Nikola Tesla, and a great > many other true pioneers might disagree with you, were they alive and here > to do so. Capitalism rewards pioneers, does not means it rewards all pioneers. > > > > Capitalism can be flawed except it is the best mankind > > have discover so far. > > Perhaps, perhaps not. You are, however, entitled to your opinion. Be > aware that stating your opinion does not constitute fact. > I never claim it is fact. But what is your opinion of best form of society? Communism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <sc...@solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午12:45写道： > > > There is but one stream from which to drink, which > > belongs to > > > everyone. > > > We simply ensure that the weakest may also drink, by > > preventing > > > the > > > strong from damming the stream, and claiming all the > > water to be > > > theirs. > > > > > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote: > > > > > > > Taking out the market and middle man, have one central > > body > > > distribute all > > > > resources and reclaim them when not needed. > > > > > > > > Wasn’t humanity spend entire 20 century with millions > > life > > > dead to proof it > > > > won’t work? > > > > > > > > <sc...@solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 > > 周五下午12:03写道： > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > Agreed. The middleman with no infrastructure > > business > > > model is > > > > by > > > > it's very nature parasitic. > > > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Fernando Frediani wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surely people benefiting from IP leasing will > > keep > > > trying to > > > > make it > > > > > 'normal', acceptable and part of day by day as > > if > > > these > > > > middleman were > > > > > facilitating something for the good of the > > internet > > > while it > > > > is the > > > > > opposite. > > > > > This practice serves exclusively to the > > financial > > > benefit of > > > > those who lease > > > > > (but are not building any Internet > > Infrastructure) and > > > of > > > > course to the > > > > > middleman not the lessee. > > > > > > > > > > How can it be beneficial to lessee that has to > > pay > > > more they > > > > would have to > > > > > spend if those very same resources were > > recovered by > > > the RIR > > > > and > > > > > re-distributed directly to that same > > organization ? > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter much how the scenario > > changed in the > > > past > > > > and recent > > > > > years. There are principles and fairness to be > > > observed and > > > > they should not > > > > > change in order to adjust the interest of > > these few > > > ones who > > > > speculate a > > > > > resource that doesn't belong to them and > > wasn't > > > justified for > > > > that propose. > > > > > It is just easier the RIR to recover them and > > do the > > > right > > > > thing, for harder > > > > > and stressful it can be it is the right thing > > to be > > > done. > > > > > > > > > > I don't mean to sound rude to those who > > disagree with > > > me, but > > > > I really hope > > > > > RIRs in general revoke as much as possible > > addresses > > > clearly > > > > being used for > > > > > leasing where the resource holder only > > speculates > > > them, > > > > doesn't build any > > > > > Internet infrastructure and where in many > > cases don't > > > even > > > > exist > > > > > connectivity between the current resource > > holder and > > > the > > > > lessee and > > > > > re-allocate them to those who truly justify. > > This has > > > nothing > > > > to do with > > > > > interfere in the business of that resource > > holder. > > > > > > > > > > Often those supporting this misuse of IP > > resources try > > > to > > > > paint a picture > > > > > that those resources are organization's > > property and > > > the RIR > > > > should be > > > > > unable to do anything about that. Not being a > > > irrevocable > > > > properly > > > > > organizations own explanations and clarity > > about how > > > they use > > > > it according > > > > > to the what is in the best interest of all > > those who > > > developed > > > > and agreed > > > > > the current rules in place and the > > organization who > > > has the > > > > duty to inspect > > > > > that. Regardless the commercial model of an > > > organization it > > > > must adhere to > > > > > the current rules and contract they previously > > signed, > > > not the > > > > other way > > > > > round. > > > > > > > > > > Also the understanding that a LIR leases IP > > addresses > > > is quiet > > > > wrong. If > > > > > they are build Internet infrastructure, > > provide > > > connectivity > > > > and charge > > > > > administrative fees for the addresses they > > allocate to > > > that > > > > customer there > > > > > is nothing wrong with it. > > > > > I personally can understand the permanent > > Transfer of > > > > resources and that has > > > > > been a more natural and fair movement and why > > > community agreed > > > > on that on > > > > > most RIRs, but despite some beautiful picture > > painted > > > IP > > > > leasing brings no > > > > > good to lessee and to the Internet if things > > can be > > > done in > > > > the proper way. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > Fernando > > > > > > > > > > On 02/09/2021 17:39, Ronald F. Guilmette > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In message > > > <058401d7a013$7797d160$66c77420$@iptrading.com>, > > > > > "Mike Burns" <m...@iptrading.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > We tried the method you've espoused below for > > thirty > > > years and > > > > > the result were a huge amount of wasted > > address space. > > > Once > > > > the market > > > > > was adopted, many of those addresses found a > > useful > > > place in > > > > the routing > > > > > table. > > > > > > > > > > Well, it's sort of a Catch-22. Mike, you're > > > absolutely right > > > > that once > > > > > there was a free market, a lot of stuff came > > off the > > > shelves > > > > and started > > > > > to be used productively. But can any of us > > say with > > > > confidence that once > > > > > there was a free market, a lot of this > > commodity > > > (IPv4) that > > > > was sitting > > > > > on shelves didn't just stay there -because- of > > the > > > open and > > > > free market... > > > > > because the "owners" of those blocks > > effectively > > > became > > > > speculators, just > > > > > waiting arond for the scarcity to become more > > acute, > > > and for > > > > the price to > > > > > go up? > > > > > > > > > > (I confess that I never in my life took an > > economics > > > class, > > > > but it seems > > > > > to me that the entire field is chock full of > > > head-scratching > > > > conundrums > > > > > like this... situation where you are damned if > > you do > > > and > > > > damned if you > > > > > don't.) > > > > > > > > > > The free pool era is dying, let's put a fork > > in it as > > > quickly > > > > as > > > > > possible We've seen the corruption engendered > > by the > > > bait of > > > > the > > > > > free pool in multiple registries now, > > including our > > > own. > > > > > > > > > > Just curious Mike... Does this opinion on your > > part > > > extend > > > > also to IPv6? > > > > > > > > > > Your old-fashioned method of address > > distribution > > > would get > > > > some > > > > > addresses to those in need, I will concede > > that. > > > However, so > > > > will > > > > > leasing addresses, with that demonstration of > > need > > > being the > > > > lease > > > > > payment. Will you concede that those who pay > > to lease > > > > addresses need > > > > > them? > > > > > > > > > > Even if nobody else does, I certainly will. > > But of > > > course > > > > that's not the > > > > > only issue. > > > > > > > > > > The current Cloud Innovation v. AFRINIC thing > > is in > > > some ways > > > > confusing as > > > > > hell because it has brought to a head > > -multiple- > > > long-standing > > > > issues that > > > > > have then gotten all tangled up with one > > another, > > > making it > > > > difficult for > > > > > anybody to tease apart the various separate > > issues. > > > > > > > > > > One of these is what might be called "equity", > > i.e. > > > the social > > > > desire to > > > > > help Africa, a continent and a people who have > > been on > > > the > > > > receiving end > > > > > of so much exploitation and malevolent evil, > > over the > > > > centuries, at the > > > > > hands of others. > > > > > > > > > > Another issue is the right and proper role of > > RIRs. > > > > > > > > > > Last but not leas (and perhaps the most > > troubling and > > > most > > > > difficult to > > > > > crack open in a way that does not merely > > reveal our > > > individual > > > > biases) is > > > > > the question of the proper role of what I will > > just > > > call > > > > "speculators" > > > > > within any free market. > > > > > > > > > > Contrary to what some might say, I think that > > when it > > > comes to > > > > IPv4 addresse > > > > > s > > > > > at least, it most certainly -is- possible to > > > distinguish > > > > "speculators" from > > > > > actual and legitimate end users and/or > > legitimate > > > brokers & > > > > middlemen such > > > > > as yourself. As I understand it, the current > > system > > > requires > > > > people to > > > > > document their equipment purchases. No > > equipment > > > purchases? > > > > You're almost > > > > > certainly just a speculator. > > > > > > > > > > So then the question becomes two-fold: (1) Do > > we want > > > > speculators in this > > > > > marketplace? and (2) Is there any actually > > feasible > > > way to > > > > keep them out > > > > > of the "free" market even if the collective > > "we" > > > firmly > > > > decided that we > > > > > wanted to do so? > > > > > > > > > > I personally don't have answers to any of > > these > > > questions. I > > > > would only > > > > > offer up the observation that I am aware of at > > least a > > > few > > > > speculators at > > > > > this moment in time, and it would be an > > understatement > > > for me > > > > to say that > > > > > their actions seem to me to be both glaringly > > untoward > > > and > > > > also unhelpful. > > > > > But if you ask me IN GENERAL whether > > "speculators" are > > > a > > > > necessary and even > > > > > useful component of a free market, I cannot > > say they > > > are not. > > > > And it seems > > > > > I may not be alone in leaving open this > > possibility: > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implosi > > o > > > n- > > > > a > > > > > > > > nd-robert-shiller-on-short-selling-and-complete-markets/ > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > rfg > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ARIN-PPML > > > > > You are receiving this message because you are > > > subscribed to > > > > > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List > > > (ARIN-PPML@arin.net). > > > > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list > > subscription > > > at: > > > > > > > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > > > > > Please contact i...@arin.net if you experience > > any > > > issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ARIN-PPML > > > > You are receiving this message because you are > > > subscribed to > > > > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List > > > (ARIN-PPML@arin.net). > > > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list > > subscription at: > > > > > > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > > > > Please contact i...@arin.net if you experience > > any > > > issues. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > Kind regards. > > > > Lu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -- > > > Kind regards. > > > Lu > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- > > Kind regards. > > Lu > > > > > > -- -- Kind regards. Lu
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