agreed. Here's hoping it'll be OVER tomorrow night! (either way...somebody PLEASE get 50%!)
Tony, there is a site http://www.tinyurl.com which allows you to make short URLs from long ones. Your Yahoo link is shortened to http://tinyurl.com/4cuhb --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Tyler, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Once again I hope we all stop and refelct on how amazing this list is. This > discussion is some of the best I have heard in the entire campaign. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Tedesco [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 1:11 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [AsburyPark] Re: 3 Political Films screening in AP this Friday > > > > > france is officially challenging the Duelfer report. pretty adamantly > too..here is a link concerning that..while it is clear that the oil > for food program is clearly corrupt, the duelfer report may be > erroneous. but in my opinion it doesnt matter if its 8% or 80%, its > another example of human nature and money..it is also not just the > germans and the french (funny how 'old europe' is so prominently > fingered)..the Al-Mada (Iraqi news)report that sparked this > investigation listed 270 persons from more than 46 countries involved > in this scandal..the UN has consistently had shady dealings, > including distributing corrupted health vaccines that in effect > sterilized women in thrid world countries..not once , not twice, but > three times that they were actually reprimamded for..anyway, thats a > whole other mess.. > > http://news.yahoo.com/news? tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041025/ap_on_re_eu/france_oil_for_food_investigati on_2 > > sorry for the long links..i am unsure how to format long links to > correctly appear in final post. any help on this would be > appreciated.. > > as for the lost battles issue, it is always hard with situations like > those in iraq to define a win or a loss..here is a opinion piece from > Sidney Blumenthal that was posted on salon.com (i have pasted the > piece, as you need to go through some sign up, etc to view it on > salon) that addresses the general notion of victory vs. defeat in > iraq. within he quotes a few retired high level military personnel. > > =================================================================== > Iraq "War is Lost" > > The "war is lost" > > Military experts say they see no exit from the Iraq debacle -- and > that the war is helping al-Qaida. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - > By Sidney Blumenthal > > > Sept. 16, 2004 | "Bring them on!" President Bush challenged the early > Iraqi insurgency in July of last year. Since then 812 American > soldiers have been killed and 6,290 wounded, according to the > Pentagon. Almost every day in campaign speeches, Bush speaks with > bravado about how we are "winning" in Iraq. "Our strategy is > succeeding," he boasted to the National Guard convention on Tuesday. > > But according to the U.S. military's leading strategists and > prominent retired generals, Bush's war is already lost. > > Retired Gen. William Odom, former head of the National Security > Agency, told me: "Bush hasn't found the WMD. Al-Qaida, it's worse - - > he's lost on that front. That he's going to achieve a democracy > there? That goal is lost, too. It's lost." He added: "Right now, the > course we're on, we're achieving [Osama] bin Laden's ends." > > Retired Gen. Joseph Hoare the former Marine commander and head of the > U.S. Central Command, told me: "The idea that this is going to go the > way these guys planned is ludicrous. There are no good options. We're > conducting a campaign as though it were being conducted in Iowa, no > sense of the realities on the ground. It's so unrealistic for anyone > who knows that part of the world. The priorities are just all wrong." > > "I see no ray of light on the horizon at all," said Jeffrey Record, > professor of strategy at the Air War College. "The worst case has > become true. There's no analogy whatsoever between the situation in > Iraq and the advantages we had after World War II in Germany and > Japan." > > "I don't think that you can kill the insurgency," said W. Andrew > Terrill, professor at the Army War College's Strategic Studies > Institute, the top expert on Iraq there. According to Terrill, the > anti-U.S. insurgency, centered in the Sunni triangle, and holding > several key cities and towns, including Fallujah, is expanding and > becoming more capable as a direct consequence of U.S. policy. "We > have a growing, maturing insurgency group," he told me. "We see > larger and more coordinated military attacks. They are getting better > and they can self-regenerate. The idea there are X number of > insurgents and when they're all dead we can get out is wrong. The > insurgency has shown an ability to regenerate itself because there > are people willing to fill the ranks of those who are killed. The > political culture is more hostile to the U.S. presence. The longer we > stay, the more they are confirmed in that view." > > After the killing of four U.S. contractors in Fallujah, the U.S. > Marines besieged the city for three weeks in April -- the watershed > event for the insurgency. "I think the president ordered the attack > on Fallujah," said Gen. Hoare. "I asked a three-star Marine general > who gave the order to go to Fallujah and he wouldn't tell me. I came > to the conclusion that the order came directly from the White House." > Then, just as suddenly, the order was rescinded, and Islamist > radicals gained control, using the city as a base, al-Qaida ("base" > in Arabic) indeed. > > "If you are a Muslim and the community is under occupation by a non- > Islamic power, it becomes a religious requirement to resist that > occupation," Terrill explained. "Most Iraqis consider us occupiers, > not liberators." He describes the religious imagery common now in > Fallujah and the Sunni triangle: "There's talk of angels and the > prophet Mohammed coming down from heaven to lead the fighting, talk > of martyrs whose bodies are glowing and emanating wonderful scents." > > "I see no exit," said Record. "We've been down that road before. It's > called Vietnamization. The idea we're going to have an Iraqi force > trained to defeat an enemy we can't defeat stretches the imagination. > They will be tainted by their very association with the foreign > occupier. In fact, we had more time and money in state building in > Vietnam than in Iraq." > > "This is far graver than Vietnam," said Gen. Odom. "There wasn't as > much at stake strategically, though in both cases we mindlessly went > ahead with a war that was not constructive for U.S. aims. But now > we're in a region far more volatile and we're in much worse shape > with our allies." > > Terrill believes that any sustained U.S. military offensive against > the no-go areas of the Sunni triangle "could become so controversial > that members of the Iraqi government would feel compelled to resign." > Thus an attempted military solution would destroy the slightest > remaining political legitimacy. "If we leave and there's no civil > war, that's a victory." > > Gen. Hoare believes from the information he has received that "a > decision has been made" to attack Fallujah "after the first Tuesday > in November. That's the cynical part of it -- after the election. The > signs are all there." He compares any such planned attack with late > Syrian dictator Hafez al-Assad's razing of the rebel city of > Hama. "You could flatten it," said Hoare. "U.S. military forces would > prevail, casualties would be high, there would be inconclusive > results with respect to the bad guys, their leadership would escape, > and civilians would be caught in the middle. I hate that > phrase 'collateral damage.' And they talked about dancing in the > street, a beacon for democracy." > > Gen. Odom remarked that the tension between the Bush administration > and senior military officers over Iraq is worse than any he has ever > seen with any previous U.S. government, including during > Vietnam. "I've never seen it so bad between the Office of the > Secretary of Defense and the military. There's a significant majority > believing this is a disaster. The two parties whose interests have > been advanced have been the Iranians and al-Qaida. Bin Laden could > argue with some cogency that our going into Iraq was the equivalent > of the Germans in Stalingrad. They defeated themselves by pouring > more in there. Tragic." > > http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2004/09/16/iraq_war/index.htm l > > ===================================================================== > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jerseyjohn99" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > From the Duelfer Report (the same report which said Saddam did NOT > > possess WMD). > > > > http://www2.cia.gov/iraqs_wmd_vol1.pdf > > > > pp 138-180 gives a detailed account with actual figures which would > > even impress your former teaching colleague. > > > > The Oil For Food program was clearly corrupted so that Saddam could > > acquire hard currency. From 1996 to 2002, more than $11 billion was > > diverted from the Oil For Food program. $11 billion skimmed from a > > program which brought $14 billion is a payday any New Jersey > > politician would be impressed with. > > > > Regarding the Al Qaeda claims, I haven't seen any member rolls to > > see what the American impact was. However, Captain Caveman himself, > > in his stump speech for Kerry Friday, said "over 15,000 of our > > people have been killed and tens of thousands injured". > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5529i > > > > Now that I have cited proof for you, can you cite one primary > source > > on Iraq which says we have been defeated in any battles? (sorry, > > your propaganda films don't count as primary sources) > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/Y2tolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsburyPark/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
