--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Tedesco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> >
jim,> I am glad to see that you are as appalled by the treatment of the >
prisoners as i am. i have actually been involved in discussionswith > some that
feel that the prisoners got what was coming to them.> > the point i was trying
to get at was that his orders may have very > well come from up the chain of
command > http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6790622 . given the memos where gonzales,at >
the doj at the time, formally concluded that the geneva convention > did not
apply to the conflict with al-queda it is not outside the > realm of reasonable
doubt that the orders actually came down the > chain of command from the top.
here is a link to the actual memo iam > talking about:> >
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4999148/site/newsweek/> > so this now (for my
questions sake) takes the question of legality > out of it. i also think it is
somewhat plausible that it came from > above as these were not situations where
discretion was involved. > pyramids of naked people, costumes, picture taking,
etc..it had tobe > pretty much out in the open. > > so, for arguments sake
assume that the orders came from above. > under those circumstances what is
your opinion on the soldiers > sentence, and how do you think that will impact
other soldiers who > are put in questionable positions when orders come from
above.after > reading your response below, i think that i had originally
thought > you towed a much harder line on doing as ordered.> > principles is
ne of the topics that this thread touches on. when > does your moral obligation
override your contractual obligation to > you employer, even if it is uncle
sam?> > for the record, i feel the sentence is justified. but this is >
coming from someone who has not served in the military. > >
tony>**********************************************************************************************************************Graner
was a Pennsylvania prison guard in his cilivan life.He made acomment that
said:{"The Christian in me say's it wrong but thecorrections officers in me
say.I love to make a grown man pissHimself"}Graner got what he deserves I
personally fell he should ofgotten more at least 20 years.Their are my peple in
is Chain ofCommand he could have what to.He was the Liaison on the cell
blockbetween MPS & intelligence officers.He is a discredit upon our
ArmedForces.He was charged with.Graner knew what he was doing waswrong.What he
did makes him no differant than the terrosits.[THEUITIMATE MEASURE OF A MAN IS
NOT WHERE HE STANDS IN MOMENTS OF COMFORT & CONVENIENCE , BUT WHERE HE
STANDS AT TIMES OF CHALLENGE & CONTROVERSY] Martin Luther King said that was
he right.I believe he was.One of the problems our Country faces today their is
still to many people prejudice here Some say they aren't but they are.Look at
what has going on right here in Asbury Park for housing,employment for people
with lower & middle incomes.Which we all should look into getting back to this
A/P chat room back into the Asbury Park area.It seems like their is plenty to
talk about right here in our own city. > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com,
"Jim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com,
"Tony Tedesco" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> > Jim,> I see your point of view,
but > can i ask your take on the current > situation with Spc. Charles > Graner
Jr and his current conviction > stemming from the'abusegate'. > I dont want to
stir the pot (yeah > right) on terrorists noit being > normal POW's. My concern
is more > directly linked to someone doing > as they are told and then
beingleft > hung out to dry. This manfaces > 10-15 years for, what he claims, >
doing as he was told. I do not > think that it is too far fetched to > think
that these orders may > have come from above. a couple of the > reasons for
this isGonzales' > (ashcroft's successor) authored the > justice departments
new viewon > prisoner treatment in the current > terror crisis we face. The >
justice department recently did a 180 on > this, but that was not > until there
was public outcry. I think itdoes > leave a somewhat > reasonable doubt that he
was rouge element.> > I know that court > martial guidelines do not fall in
line what us > civilians know as > our rights in court, so i dont know how much
> reasonable doubtcomes > into play.> > Do you feel that his sentence, is
reasonable? or > rather, is it > understood that these things may happen in the
> military? When is it > acceptable to break the chain of command? I >
undersdtand the need,but > when it comes down to it, it is only by > the grace
of god that youor > i are not in graner's cell.> > > respectfully yours,>
tony > > > >
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////>
/////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > > > TONY,>This comes
down to a persons princples while working as a > chef infood service I was ask
& told to do things that I knew was > againest law.I work in a supermarket
during a grand opening where I > was ask todo things that would make you
sick.Hold roaster chix > overnight hot soit come off the bone easy the next day
to make chix > salad non washingof foods etc.I walk off that job.After
turningthem > in to my localB.O.H.,State Assemblymen & I went to Congress &
askfor > a Law to bepass to where Chefs,Managers in charge of kitchens at >
times ofinspections should pay fines to the local B.O.H for certain >
foodservice laws such a workers smoking while working with food, >
nohairnets.tempertures of food.Cross cotamination of > foods.CongressmanPallone
pass it to Congresman Holt because in wasmy > Congressman atthe time.The 107th
Congress was beginning a debate in > Food Safeyproposals in July of 2001.My
letter was brought their by > CongressmanHolt.And brought before Congress.The
Center for disease > control &Prevention {CDC} estimate that each year in the
U.S. 76 > millionpeople get sick 325,000 are hopitalzed & 5000 die from food >
relatedillnesses.In August of 1998 President Clinton established a > Councilon
Food Safety to create a strategic plan to coordinate all > agenciesbudgets for
food safety activities & respond to a Natinal > Academy ofSciences report.In
this letter I wrote to Congress I said > that in1980 my Food Service Sergeant
in Cook School said 10 -20years > fromknow their will be new diseases out their
some food related > becauseof 2 reasons.Lazy & Uneducated people in Food
Service.I ask > Congresswas in right.I have walk off of several jobs overthe
years > because ofkitchen things that would surprise you.I work in oekitchen >
to wearwhen the waitress came back to to make your salad that'swhen > theyhad
cigrattees hanging out of their mouth.I lasted one week the > moneywas great
but my princple came first.I turn them into the > B.O.H.Myprincples come first.
What these soiders {guards} in the > pictures did was wrong treatingthese POW
like they did.The soliders > if found gulity deserve whatthey get.Their are
other people intheir > Chain of Command they couldhave went to.It comes down to
a person > Princples in life.I findimpossable to believe that these soliders >
couldn't find a 1stSergeant or Officer to go let them no that they > was being
givingorders that they no is againest the Military > Laws.
JAMES GRABE
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