C-da,
The problem once again here is that you have not given
one valid argument to say why it does not make sense
when I use the same arguments you make to turn your
points around.
Obviously you make the points on specious grounds with
very little thinking through. It is for that very
reason that it can be turned around so easily.
I appreciate your advice however. In these many years
of working with start ups and some really brilliant
people and having to constantly fend off big brother
competition, one pattern that has come back again and
again is that the big brother is never a ALL POWERFUL
monstrosity. That creative solutions almost always lie
in using the monstrous big brother's own weight to
turn against itself. It works almost always. One
example could be the Jehadistas you have mentioned -
they are giving Bush a very hard time, don't you
think?
In all your arguments that I have seen in your posts
with Utpalda and Mayur as well, you assume that they
(and I) are making assumptions about the unwillingness
of Bodos and Tiwas and Bengalis and others to support
the ULFA or a sovereign state.
Let me just go ahead one more time to use your
specious argument - when you say all these groups
would support a sovereign Assam, YOU are making an
ASSUMPTION.
The precise reason you have gone hoarse explaining why
these groups want to break away is the fact that your
reasoning holds little water and therefore precious
few people of the opposite persuasion buy it.
You have also not taken care to listen to others'
arguments. You rarely do.
This thing about living interdependently can be said
about any region in the country or between regions
such as Assam and Bengal. It is no different.
Unfortunately we live in a different world than
centuries back. There are limited resources and way
more people and way more of their aspirations. The
basic straightforward reason why these groups are
disaffected with the sovereign Assam movement is
precisely because the sovereignity thing is based on
ethnic chauvinism. What it means is the primacy of the
specific ethnic group in taking the share of the
spoils. Clearly the sovereign Assam movement has
failed, abjectly I would say, in creating a shared
aspiration.
Actually, I think (and you would say it is an
assumption) that they have not even been successful in
convincing ALL of the Assamese speaking people that it
makes sense to be sovereign.
And that, at least, should bring us to our second
point - that the case for sovereign Assam itself holds
little water overall. And that is why not just other
ethnic groups but the Assamese themselves not believe
in the cause.
You talk about an alternate system of governance in a
sovereign Assam taking care of assuring the spoils are
shared right. And I have consistently said that the
spoils would be shared right if our regional political
leaders and the bureacracy had done things right
earlier. That it is not the system but the leadership
that is at fault. And that in a sovereign state would
be a nightmarish problem.
The problem is that there is no answer for the
leadership issue. As is there no real answer for what
better governance would come about in a sovereign
state. Whatever little we have heard of (such as the
initial dictatorship of the ULFA or the abolition of
property rights or the mobilization of people to
achieve state objectives) give us cause for great
alarm.
Finally, C-Da, accusing others of not having
"inferential capabilities" and other such adjectives
you routinely dish out, when faced with folks that
don't buy your argument does not help your cause or
show you in great light. It is akin to how the bullies
in primary school react when their balloons are
pricked :-)
--- Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rajib:
>
> At 8:04 AM -0800 11/4/05, Rajib Das wrote:
> >But C-Da, it is indeed an argument - following
> exactly
> >the lines you worked along :-)
>
> *** First, for a product of the 21st century
> desi-knowledge brigade, you disappoint me every
> time you parrot my line of arguments and even
> words and phrases, particularly when you so
> vehemently disagree with them. You ought to have
> learnt by now that it is very unproductive to
> fight the 'enemy' on its terms :-). It is a
> sure-fire recipe for no getting anywhere, if not
> for losing. A friendly suggestion, not merely for
> these debates, but for life in general, is that
> it is very important for one to seek out creative
> answers, seek new paths to solving problems. Your
> generation, with the backgrounds like some you
> have had, ought to be able to deliver far more
> than echoing those that you obviously do not
> agree with. It is like the Hinduttwa brigades'
> tack of trying to be bad clones of Jehadistas or
> Talibans, without their zeal. A patently lost
> cause!
>
>
>
> >Let us say Assam becomes sovereign. And the Bodos
> of
> >Kokrajhar say no. The Bengali ghettos in Guwahati
> say
> >no. The Tiwas say no. The Cacharis say no. Will the
> >sovereign government of Assam hand over their lands
> to
> >those guys?
>
>
> *** Here are too many assumptions for the
> question which forms your answer, to hold any
> water. Allow me to explain:
>
> First, you have assumed that the smaller
> indigenous groups of Assam, including the Bengali
> speaking ones who have lived in geographical
> Assam for generations will or most likely refuse
> to be a part of a sovereign Assam. But that
> assumption could be legitimate ONLY if you have
> explored WHY this situation has developed in
> recent decades--of each indigenous group seeking
> to carve out its own sovereign state, and
> concluded credibly that it could NOT resolved
> except, may only be kept under check by brutal
> Indian military might like Saddam Hussein or the
> erstwhile USSR or the PRofChina.
>
> But that is a false assumption. For someone like
> yourself with an IIM-MBA, I would have expected
> an analysis of the reasons why this condition has
> developed
> in the NE, and exploration of solutions there for.
>
> Not that the subject was never broached in this
> forum. I have gotten hoarse explaining some of
> the reasons. But those of you who do not accept
> them, and are endowed with analytical skills and
> outlooks, should be able to articulate your OWN
> assessments and lay out the reasons for it as
> you see them.
>
> Once you have done that, you could look into how to
> resolve the problem. I know
> the answers conceptually and am convinced that a
> sovereign Assam, and even a truly autonomous
> Assam with REAL powers to re-orient its
> governance can resolve these issues quite easily,
> because there is a historical precedent for it.
> These people lived side by side, in relative
> peace, interdependently, in for centuries.
>
> The above two combined, therefore, makes the
> analogy of Assam's disaffections as a part of
> India very different from the disaffections of
> the many indigenous people of the NE , which is a
> PRODUCT of the reigning Indian system of
> unaccountable, dysfunctional governance steeped
> in the politics of (not) sharing the spoils.
>
>
> I understand your and other ethnic Bengalis' fears
> and mistrusts of the Oxomiya
> chauvinists. But that has changed dramatically
> over the decades, even if not dead. But it will
> be the easiest thing to overcome, when the
> intelligentsia of the communities could join
> forces, backed by a functioning and trustworthy
> system of law-enforcement and justice of a
> reformed Assam government, considering the fact
> that the Assamese are the closest to the Bengalis
> in every describable ethnic/cultural traits among
> all the people of the South Asian sub-continent
> (with the exception of our indigenous Bodos,
> Karbis, Misings, Tiwas etc. who are historically
> more closely related kin.)
>
> So, put your thinking cap on and go at it. Don't
> try to throw my arguments at me, when you don't
> agree. That does not go anywhere :-).
>
> c-da
>
>
>
>
> > And especially in our parts of the
> >country, if indeed you do handover Kokrajhar to
> >Bodoland, what about the Assamese there who want to
> be
> >a part of sovereign India? Or sovereign Assam for
> that
> >matter?
> >
> >As to why Assam should be a part of sovereign
> India, I
> >will address it in a separate e-mail!
> >
> >
> >
> >> > *** That is no argument. Assam is Assam and
> it's
> >> > wishes are not subject to
> >> > somebody else's choices, wishes or demands.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > But let me ask you, one of the most avid
> >> > advocates of India, WHY it is good for India
> to
> >> > hold onto Assam, or how it is good for Assam
> to
> >> > continue to submit to Indian rule?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > At 8:01 AM -0800 11/3/05, Rajib Das wrote:
> >> > >There was never one India ruler that had ALL
> of
> >> > India
> >> > >under his belt. The Cholas were never ruled
> from
> >> > >Pataliputra as well. And Assam as it is known
> >> today
> >> > >was not ruled for ever from Pragjyotishpur.
> >> > >
> >> > >The basis of modern Indian nationhood from
> most
> >> > claims
> >> > >is the common cultural links across all the
> >> regions
> >> > of
> >> > >the country. Actually that is how most modern
> >> > nations
> >> > >(including those of Europe) came about.
> >> > >
> >> > >Going by this logic of who ruled whom, the
> Nagas
> >> > >should not have a country (or for that matter
> a
> >> > state
> >> > >even) - their territories were, for the most
> >> part,
> >> > >variously ruled by the Meitis and the
> Burmese.
> >> And
> >> > I
> >> > >am sure more than half the tribes of the
> north
> >> east
> >> > >did not have a king in their name.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >--- Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >>
> >> > >> >In an antithesis to the rebelsÂ’ claim
> that
> >> > Assam
> >> > >> >had never shared a common culture and
> history
> >> > >> >with India before the Yandaboo >Treaty,
> >> Mamoni
> >> > >> >pointed out that the Ramayana had always
> >> > >> >influenced Assamese culture and society.
> An
>
=== message truncated ===
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