No, I wasn't avoiding it by any means, but since you are bringing it
up..
In this quest for identity, we really don't have to put down the literary
crowd of the past. At least, the intelligentsia of yore did transliterations
into English with the simple ideas of making Assamese more widespread and
easier to learn. Maybe they depended on Sanskrit or Hindi. They could have
been wrong in their dependence on Sanskrit. but, I am sure, what they
did not do was to push something else in the garb of
transliteration.
So, what is it C'd? Are all these discussions about Transliterations or
of Assamese losing their Identity? One would hope if we are discussing
transliterations, then we are doing just that, and not discussing it because
we want to highlight something else.
On 9/14/06, Chan Mahanta <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Ram:
>
>
> Dilip might be on
the mark to you, but both of you miss the point I was making, which is: WHY is
it that Oxomiya names, words and sounds, as spoken by
> contemporary
Oxomiya people are somehow NOT legitimate enough for a segment of Assam's
intelligentsia, so that they HAVE to use Sanskritized forms of those names,
words and sounds, before they transliterate them into English?
>
>
> You could NOT answer that, even though you seem to tacitly
support it, or at least have been trying desperately to find some
justification for it. Dilip, no doubt experiencing discomfiture, tried to
change the subject , and I am sure it came as a welcome relief for you :-).
>
>
> Yes what Dilip raised is an issue, but a DIFFERENT
issue. It has nothing to do with what we have been debating/discussing
>
>
> c-da
>
>
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> At
9:37 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> DD's assumptions are on
the mark. If Hindi were to become more influential then logically the target
market would be Hindiwallas.
> Would we then suddenly start trying to
find alphabets in Hindi tomorrow with fit the mold (something close to X)?
>
> Also, if the intent is to make non-native Assamese
interested speaking Assamese the way Assamese want them to, there ought to
some sort of guidance, a dictionary with this new way of pronouncing? If there
isn't, that I think should be the first step - so that some day that would
become the standard for people to use.
>
> --Ram
>
>
> On 9/13/06, Dilip/Dil Deka <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Let's assume for a moment that Assam remains in India for a few more
decades and Hindi language keeps the position it has now. :-)
> How
would you transliterate "Oxom" in Hindi script to get Hindi speakers to
pronounce the name like they do in Assam? How do you do it in Bengali?
>
Just my tangential thought since so much has been written about
transliteration in English script. Think about it.
>
>
Like Sarangapani said the average person in Assam does not care how you write
"Oxom" in English. That's why it is a non-issue in Assam. Only some
of the expatriates are losing sleep over the issue.
> Dilip
>
======================================================
>
>
> Chan Mahanta <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ram:
>
>
>
>
>
>There is no rationale.
>
>
> *** My point
exactly :-).
>
>
>
>
> >One
think so, as they ought to be ones telling us how to spell and pronounce.
>
>
> *** And here enters the sheep factor: Because
someone used it in the past, without any rationale, should thinking and able
individuals in the present time who can see better, ought to keep following
the same path too? Would be the new rationale? That in my book would be
absurd. Won't it for you too?
>
>
>
>
> >Just wondering. How is that this is now suddenly a
hot-button issue?
>
>
> *** Because of contemporary
issues involving asserting one's ethnic identity and correcting misnomers
imposed by outsiders.
>
>
> >How did people like
K.K. Handique handle this? Or others for that matter?
>
>
> *** I don't know. And I don't NEED to know, because it is way
too simple a matter for anyone to seek 'expert' validation from. And no one
else should need that either.
>
>
> At any event,
if I read correctly here in Assam Net at one time, KKH was an advocate of
using the 'x' letter for transliteration of our 'xo' sound. Furthermore, times
change, and so do customs, including style of writing, spelling,
what-have-you. And WE have to do the right things by our times, not someone
who has been long gone.
>
>
> c-da
>
>
>
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>
> At 4:16 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani
wrote:
>
> C'da,
>
>
>
>
>
> >But the question is WHY? What is the logic, the
rationale?
>
>
>
> There is no rationale.
Such issues are only relevant for the intelligentsia. For the common folks
this is just another nuance. Tell me why a khetiok working in his parched
lands would want to apply any logic in this regard?
>
>
>
>
> >*** Do I take it therefore, that "well-known
literary figures' lead here is the driving factor?
>
>
>
> One think so, as they ought to be ones telling us how
to spell and pronounce.
>
>
>
> Just
wondering. How is that this is now suddenly a hot-button issue?
>
>
>
> How did people like K.K. Handique handle
this? Or others for that matter?
>
> How would KKH have written
'Oxom' or 'Oxom Xahityo Xobha' or
>
> even 'Xonkordeu' when they
wrote in English? There were no X's then.
>
>
>
> Just curious
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta
<
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> >Many people often pronounce it one way (like
Xonkrordev or Xonkrordeb), but >when they write it in English, they write
it differently (Sankaradeva).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *** I noticed. Tell me something I
don't know :-).
>
>
>
>
> But the
question is WHY? What is the logic, the rationale?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >And they did NOT
come up with these spellings in English all by themselves, but >because of
the practice of the literary figures and the GOA.
>
>
>
>
> *** And what is THEIR logic?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>their lack of logic or they are just 'sheep'
>
>
>
>
> >as you suggest, is open to question.
>
>
>
>
> *** Why is it still OPEN to question Ram?
What part of my logic is incomprehensible :-)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >'cause thats how
it has been probably written by well-known literry figures.
>
>
>
>
> *** Do I take it therefore, that "well-known
literary figures' lead here is the driving factor? And had these "well-known"
people used a Bengalified version or a Hindified version of Assamese
sounds before transliterating them in English, the sheep would have followed
them just the same, and sympathetic Assam Netters would have manufactured
convoluted justifications for them just the same ?
>
>
>
>
> Call me dense, but that is the part I can't dig Ram.
That inability to process ordinary logic, particularly by people who ought to
be or could be expected to be :-).
>
>
>
>
> c-da
>
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> At 12:59 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani
wrote:
>
> C'da.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>---why they should follow
your or my path to spellings and transliteration.
>
>
>
>
> >*** Anyone endowed with an ability to reason, and
knowledgeably ( about >the subject matter) ought to go by what is LOGICAL,
not necessarily by >what Rajen suggests or I support
>
>
>
>
> They have the ability to reason well, but
they just consider this as something very important at this point of
time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>But if you don't and you are not ashamed of pronouncing it >Xonkrordev
or as in Upper Assam as Xonkordeu, then you ought to >transliterate it the
way you pronounce it.
>
>
>
>
> Many
people often pronounce it one way (like Xonkrordev or Xonkrordeb), but when
they write it in English, they write it differently (Sankaradeva). And they
did NOT come up with these spellings in English all by themselves, but because
of the practice of the literary figures and the GOA.
>
>
>
>
> Now, whether all this is due to
their lack of logic or they are just 'sheep'
>
> as you suggest,
is open to question.
>
> I think, common folks just haven't given
it much thought and are not interested in making this a hot issue.
>
>
>
>
> >*** WHY so ? Why does one
write Sankaradeva? Can you explain :-)?
>
>
>
>
> 'cause thats how it has been probably written by
well-known literry figures. Don't think common folks had some agenda of
pushing Sanskrit or English when they write that way.
>
>
>
>
> To you or me, writing that way may be an
issue with Assamese identity, but maybe not for others (at least it looks that
way)
>
>
>
>
> >But that does NOT
make it a non-issue. Origins of all good things and >movements could be
traced to a thought of a single individual
>
>
>
>
> No, it doesn't make it a non-issue. Noble as such
things are, one does need support. On the practical side, anything like this
does need support and interest - without which, you will be spitting in the
wind.
>
>
>
>
> >> There was
absolutely NO interest -
>
> >*** So?
>
>
>
>
> Same as above
>
>
>
>
> >Tell you what: That kind of tenacity and faith in
my own sense of what is >right and what is not, has served me very well:-)!
>
>
>
>
> So it has for me. But, I
wonder what it does for the "cause" :)
>
>
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ram:
>
>
>
>
> >---why
they should follow your or my path to spellings and transliteration.
>
>
>
>
> *** Anyone endowed with an ability
to reason, and knowledgeably ( about the subject matter) ought to go by what
is LOGICAL, not necessarily by what Rajen suggests or I support. Rajen's or my
role are little--we just help clarify the issues.
>
>
>
>
> Assamese people do not call their icon Sankaradeva, do
they? Do you? If you or others do, they ought to stick with that
transliteration. But if you don't and you are not ashamed of pronouncing it
Xonkrordev or as in Upper Assam as Xonkordeu, then you ought to transliterate
it the way you pronounce it.
>
>
>
>
> Is it a profound conundrum? Maybe so, to some. It certainly is NOT
for me. Ought not to be for you.
>
>
>
>
> Should we follow like sheep? I would submit, we ought not to.
>
>
>
>
> >Never thought, I would
hear that from you? What then, do you recommend that >this public
do?
>
>
>
>
> *** Attempt to
learn!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >So, this is really NOT about transliteration at
all, is it?
>
>
>
>
> *** WHY so
? Why does one write Sankaradeva? Can you explain :-)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >You
know, some of us actually took out an online petition against this
name issue. Want to know the results?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *** I know. We
have done that on a number of issues with similar results. But that does NOT
make it a non-issue. Origins of all good things and movements could be traced
to a thought of a single individual.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > There was absolutely NO
interest -
>
>
>
>
> ***
So?
>
>
>
>
> >Well, I just
reminded, once again, some of us were taken for another ride. I am still sore
from that rough ride :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ***
Par for the course Ram! Do I need to retell accounts of my rough
rides :-)? But still I would not back down from what I believe in to be
correct, do I?
>
>
>
>
> Tell you
what: That kind of tenacity and faith in my own sense of what is right and
what is not, has served me very well:-)!
>
>
>
>
> c-da
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 10:43 AM -0500
9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
> C'da,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bhuban da and Manoj do make some good points. Yes, you and Barua are
probably right about the 'subject mentality' and also how 'Assam' got
mis-transliterated.
>
>
>
>
> Like it
or not, OXX has been bestowed the 'literary authority' as it
consists of most of the famous literary figures in Assam.
>
>
Now, you can say -why should we listen to the dictates of OXX or the GOA etc?
Well, the question can be turned around and the common man on the street can
well ask why they should follow your or my path to spellings and
transliteration.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Now, (even if they are all wrong, and say you, Barua, and some others
are right), how would non-literary types like myself (or Monoj - sorry Monoj)
propose a drastically different spelling or go against the best literary minds
in Assam?
>
>
>
>
> >the ignorant
public takes it lying down,
>
>
>
>
>
Never thought, I would hear that from you? What then, do you recommend that
this public do?
>
>
>
>
> >It is
those who have no self esteem, continue to kow-tow to >superior language
gods, be it Xongskrit, be it English.
>
>
>
>
> So, this is really NOT about transliteration at all, is it? It is
more about the Assamese identity. Why not sell that idea straight out of
the box, instead of mixing it up with transliteration - after all the common
man is ignorant :).
>
>
>
>
> You
know, some of us actually took out an online petition against this
name issue. Want to know the results?
>
>
>
>
> Well, 5 voted for it, and no one else cared one way or
the other. There was absolutely NO interest - even from those who were
touting opposition to the GOA's changing the name to Asom, ga-ga -ing all the
way, and egging us to start the petition.
>
>
>
>
> Well, I just reminded, once again, some of us were
taken for another ride. I am still sore from that rough ride :)
>
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dear BK:
>
>
>
>
> I can't
see HOW the Oxom Xahityo Xobha could become the sole custodian of the Assamese
language or the Assamese identity.
>
>
>
>
> It is typical of desi-demokrasy, where elections seem to bestow
dictatorial/monarchical powers to bureaucrats and elected reps., and the
ignorant public takes it lying down, while the intelligentsia, similarly
clueless remain invisible and silent.
>
>
>
>
> >Rajen ought to get a full hearing as anybody
else.
>
>
>
>
> *** It is NOT just
Rajen's pet peeve. It is an issue for all Assamese who care about its
'ostitwo', its claim to an identity all its own, without apologies, without
having to bow to ANYONE.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It is those who have no self esteem, continue to
kow-tow to superior language gods, be it Xongskrit, be it English.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ***
About the 'Sankaradeva' spelling for example, could it have been that when the
first British colonial masters transliterated the name, were also people
who
>
> were Xongskrit learners, and could not separate the
Assamese from its Sanskrit
>
> connections? Thus they
chose to Sanskritize an Assamese name, when they transliterated them in
English.
>
>
>
>
> Once that happened,
the subject people, and even their intellectuals albeit similarly burdened by
a subject mentality, could not imagine transliterating Xongkordev. Instead
they followed the steps of their colonial masters.
>
>
>
>
> And to this day, some, including for example the AT,
cannot imagine breaking from that tradition of colonial servitude, just like
many of Assam's intelligentsia.
>
>
>
>
> But why should WE?
>
>
>
>
>
Best.
>
>
>
>
> c
>
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>
>
> At 9:56 AM -0400 9/13/06,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
> Content-Language: en
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear MKD/Mike et al
>
>
>
>
>
It appears the State Government sought Asam Sahitya Sabha's views on the
matter of renaming Assam. It is possible without the benefit of wide
discussion and debate the Sahitya Sabha recommended the change to Asom and the
State Government accepted it.
>
>
>
>
> Perhaps even now Asam Sahitya Sabha can take up the matter again. It
is not too late as the necessary Constitutional amendments are yet to take
place. Rajen ought to get a full hearing as anybody else.
>
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
>
> Bhuban
>
>
>
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> assam mailing
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
> assam mailing
list
>
assam@assamnet.org>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
> assam mailing
list
>
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>
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>
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