Again,my response was undertaken based on your observation.Good night. On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Chan Mahanta <cmaha...@gmail.com> wrote: >>There we have a CM who openly says that there are no >> >> aliens in Assam.That says a lot. > > > **** That CM is a duly ELECTED one according to the standards of > desi-demokrasy. Are you suggesting he does NOT represent the voice of Assam? > > And are you also suggesting that the Kongress Party is an independent entity, > that answers to its constituents, the people of Assam alone? > > >>I was referring to you and not the population. > > **** I am a THIRD party, observing and analyzing. I don't have a stake in > Assam. I left long, long ago. It is quite immaterial to Assam what MY views , > OPINIONS, might be. But what cannot be discounted, diluted or otherwise > made less important by MY personal views or opinions is the FACT ofd WHO is > responsible for border protection, immigration control and such. > > So, to use my persona to evade my question, to obfuscate, IS a classic > example of argumentum ad hominem. And I rest my case :-). > > > > > > > > > On Aug 19, 2010, at 10:51 PM, kamal deka wrote: > >> I was referring to you and not the population.The people of Assam are >> well-cognizant about that.I disagree because they are illegals.As >> simple as that.There we have a CM who openly says that there are no >> aliens in Assam.That says a lot. >> KJD >> >> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Chan Mahanta <cmaha...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> You are such a fun and funny guy K! Takes little to get you rolling :-). >>> >>> >>>> HE CAUSE OR SOLUTION CAN ONLY BE FOUND FOR ANY PROBLEM IF THE >>>> EXISTENCE OF THE SAME IS ACCEPTED FIRST.IF THE PEOPLE REFUSE TO >>>> RECOGNISE THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM,WHITHER SOLUTION?A GRAND CHARADE >>>> INDEED. >>> >>> >>> **** You need to get this vetted with your cheering section :-). I >>> understood earlier that only >>> certain SEGMENTS of Assam does not consider it a problem. Are you >>> suggesting the "population" at large >>> does not consider it a problem, and that is why, those who are responsible >>> and who have the resources >>> have not taken it seriously or done anything about it? >>> >>> Yes, a CHARADE it certainly is, except not played by those who you seem to >>> hold responsible. It is a charade >>> being played by those who are unable to acknowledge where the problem lies. >>> >>> >>>> FOR SOME KHARKHOWAS,IT HAS BECOME A FASHION TO SAY THAT ILLEGAL >>>> BANGLADEHIS ARE THE MUSCLE AND SINEW OF OUR COMMUNITY!!! >>> >>> >>> **** In some ways some of them have become that. Do you disagree? And if >>> you do, why? >>> >>>> WHY SQUARELY BLAME DELHI? >>> >>> **** Far be it for me than to blame Delhi. What do I know about who the >>> responsibility lies with. >>> I was merely asking who YOU think is responsible, who is bound by that >>> SACRED constitution to >>> provide border security, immigration control, apprehension, adjudication >>> and deportation of illegals >>> and so forth? >>> >>> You seem to suggest it is NOT Dilli's responsibility, on the pretext that >>> the "population" of Assam does not care. >>> >>> On that front may I ask you if you heard about that "andwlon" from way >>> back in the 80's and what it was all >>> about? >>> >>> >>>> SET YOUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER FIRST.THAT WOULD BE WISER. >>>> >>> >>> >>> *** That sure sounds like words of the wise. Question is WHOSE house you >>> are referring to? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 7:56 PM, kamal deka wrote: >>> >>>>>>> It is an evasive answer, attempt to change the subject. I ask the >>>>>>> question to point to the ROOT of the problem. To refuse to acknowledge >>>>>>> the MAIN cause while shedding tears over it to no end<<< >>>> >>>> I was about to hit the ceiling laughing:-).PUTTING THE CART BEFORE THE >>>> HORSE? THE CAUSE OR SOLUTION CAN ONLY BE FOUND FOR ANY PROBLEM IF THE >>>> EXISTENCE OF THE SAME IS ACCEPTED FIRST.IF THE PEOPLE REFUSE TO >>>> RECOGNISE THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM,WHITHER SOLUTION?A GRAND CHARADE >>>> INDEED. >>>> >>>> FOR SOME KHARKHOWAS,IT HAS BECOME A FASHION TO SAY THAT ILLEGAL >>>> BANGLADEHIS ARE THE MUSCLE AND SINEW OF OUR COMMUNITY!!! >>>> >>>> WHY SQUARELY BLAME DELHI? WHAT ABOUT OUR OWN BUTTERBALL KHARKHOWA >>>> REPS.? THEY HAVE BEEN LIVING IN A CAVE FOR LONG TIME TOTALLY DETACHED >>>> >>>> SET YOUR OWN HOUSE IN ORDER FIRST.THAT WOULD BE WISER. >>>> >>>> KJD >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 8:53 AM, Chan Mahanta <cmaha...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> First,two wrongs don't make a right. >>>>> >>>>> **** It is an evasive answer, attempt to change the subject. I ask the >>>>> question to point to the ROOT of the problem. To refuse to acknowledge >>>>> the MAIN cause while shedding tears over it to no end, is no different >>>>> than 'the apathetic people' of Assam that a few of you try to hold >>>>> RESPONSIBLE for the problem, as Ram has so eloquently demonstrated :-). >>>>> >>>>> Question would be why? Why are you so afraid to give a straight answer >>>>> instead of resorting to subterfuges? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Secondly,your explanation is like this: since the cop can't catch >>>>>> criminals,do away with the police department and criminal codes so >>>>>> that the thugs could have field day. >>>>> >>>>> **** It couldn't be farther from the truth. Ram's premise was that the >>>>> 'population' is 'accepting of it' >>>>> and that it 'cherry picks' --- opportunities to demonize his India. >>>>> >>>>> If that cherry-picking hurts his or your sentiments so, why can't you >>>>> show us WHAT your keepers and >>>>> mai-baap at Dilli, who is RESPONSIBLE for it and has the RESOURCES , been >>>>> doing all these years >>>>> with the help and collusion of its puppets at Dispur? >>>>> >>>>> And IF "the population" is "accepting" who is Ram or you, expatriates, to >>>>> take issue with it? >>>>> >>>>> **** So which part of these amounts to arguing that two wrongs make a >>>>> right or any such thing, even remotely? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 18, 2010, at 10:33 PM, kamal deka wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>> : Where were/are the border security forces? Whose responsibility is >>>>>>>>> it to secure the borders?<<< >>>>>> Two things again: >>>>>> First,two wrongs don't make a right. >>>>>> Secondly,your explanation is like this: since the cop can't catch >>>>>> criminals,do away with the police department and criminal codes so >>>>>> that the thugs could have field day. >>>>>> KJD >>>>>> >>>>>> B: If the population is accepting of such 'intruders', ass you >>>>>> premise, who are you or I to take issue with it as you do here? >>>>>> What is your standing, if we had to employ legal terminology, to take >>>>>> issue with it, other than your personal >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 9:35 PM, Chan Mahanta <cmaha...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> The central theme is such cases is >>>>>>>> Assam is so different from the rest of India, shares little with it, >>>>>>>> that it >>>>>>>> needs to be separate from India. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> **** That is what IMAGINING a national identity is all about. What is >>>>>>> India? How is it different from Pakistan, or B'desh, or Nepal or >>>>>>> SriLanka. >>>>>>> All national identities are born out of a imaginations trhat they are. >>>>>>> There are NO rules that govern it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or are there? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> n many a case I suspect, the aim is >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cherry picking at will, and at the opportune times, and what suits them >>>>>>>> best. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ****Let us accept the premise here. If so, is there a law against that? >>>>>>> Or is it unethical according to some standard of ethical practices? >>>>>>> Who are these conspirators who choose to cherry pick? And WHAT IS their >>>>>>> interest, their motives? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Then the same groups have absolutely no qualms of B'deshis illegally >>>>>>>> entering Assam, or Pakistanis encroaching into Kashmir - whereby >>>>>>>> changing >>>>>>>> the entire political landscape of these regions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> **** TWO points to note here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A: Where were/are the border security forces? Whose responsibility is >>>>>>> it to secure the borders? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> B: If the population is accepting of such 'intruders', ass you premise, >>>>>>> who are you or I to take issue with it as you do here? >>>>>>> What is your standing, if we had to employ legal terminology, to take >>>>>>> issue with it, other than your personal >>>>>>> preferences or, more precisely, prejudices? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> **** finally, I think Sanjiv Goswami is exactly right with his >>>>>>> analyses and conclusions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Ram Sarangapani wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Very well put KJD. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Many of the discussions like this involve a number of dichothomies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Quite often, we find some groups of people demanding a unique identity >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> Assam (or Kashmir as the case may be). The central theme is such cases >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> Assam is so different from the rest of India, shares little with it, >>>>>>>> that it >>>>>>>> needs to be separate from India. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Then the same groups have absolutely no qualms of B'deshis illegally >>>>>>>> entering Assam, or Pakistanis encroaching into Kashmir - whereby >>>>>>>> changing >>>>>>>> the entire political landscape of these regions. Now, suddenly these >>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>> folks are willing to embrace the B'deshis with open arms. And everyone >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> required to show empathy to the illegal immigrants. There are >>>>>>>> suggestions to >>>>>>>> erase borders and think of the world with no borders. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The political aims of these groups are probably hidden somewhere >>>>>>>> between >>>>>>>> these two juxtaposing sets of ideas. In many a case I suspect, the aim >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> cherry picking at will, and at the opportune times, and what suits them >>>>>>>> best. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> btw: Uttam - thanks for forwarding this. It is an important topic to be >>>>>>>> discussing, and hopefully discussions are taken in that spirit. -- Ram >>>>>>>> da >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --Ram >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 7:17 PM, kamal deka <kjit.d...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> When did this >>>>>>>>> word come about and when did the Assamese language originate is >>>>>>>>> confusing, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> it is well established that his word and this language is not from >>>>>>>>> the days >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> Mahabharat.If that is so, what happened to the original people of >>>>>>>>> those Mahabharat times <<< >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If we take the legitimacy of current nation-states on the basis of >>>>>>>>> centuries of common continuous political rule over the same >>>>>>>>> geographical boundary and inhabited by the same people, then >>>>>>>>> practically no country on the planet meets this criteria. Simply put, >>>>>>>>> shifting nature of political kingdoms and their boundaries over the >>>>>>>>> centuries legitimize virtually no country in its present form. >>>>>>>>> KJD >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 10:30 PM, uttam borthakur >>>>>>>>> <uttambortha...@yahoo.co.in> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> The following is surely not my view, as it comes from a tormentor, >>>>>>>>>> but as >>>>>>>>> this issue appears in this forum as well, I am quoting this person >>>>>>>>> ad-verbatim, as he has been busy doing some research on this subject >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> engaged in Immigration Law related activities in Australia, as I am >>>>>>>>> made to >>>>>>>>> understand. Please read on:- >>>>>>>>>> "Hi All, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Reading ...... after a long time and lo .. my name seems to have >>>>>>>>>> cropped >>>>>>>>> up here >>>>>>>>>> and there. Good .. it keeps me in circulation lest people forget me. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> like to clarify for ......... sake that my question of who is an >>>>>>>>>> Assamese >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> something which each of us need to ask. We are all bloody immigrants >>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>> (a term used now in the Australian election campaign) or atleast >>>>>>>>>> most of >>>>>>>>> us are >>>>>>>>>> and we came as poor people or as religious preachers or as >>>>>>>>>> conquerors. >>>>>>>>> But we >>>>>>>>>> have taken over the land and now call ourselves Assamese, because >>>>>>>>> someone, not >>>>>>>>>> too long ago, decided to call this part of the world as Assam. When >>>>>>>>>> did >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> word come about and when did the Assamese language originate is >>>>>>>>> confusing, but >>>>>>>>>> it is well established that his word and this language is not from >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> days of >>>>>>>>>> Mahabharat. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If that is so, what happened to the original people of those >>>>>>>>>> Mahabharat >>>>>>>>> times ? >>>>>>>>>> Well, we relegated them to the backgroud, so much so that they are >>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>> classed >>>>>>>>>> as ST and are fighting for survival, not from onslaught of >>>>>>>>>> bangladeshis, >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> .............. suggests, but from us !!!. We never ever referred to >>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>> as Assamese, >>>>>>>>>> but would call them as Naga or Khasi or Bodo or Lalung etc. So much >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> that even >>>>>>>>>> the people who were here before us, like the original Assamese Hindu >>>>>>>>> people of >>>>>>>>>> upper Assam and Golaghat (referring to Jabeen and her folks) who >>>>>>>>>> later >>>>>>>>>> converted to Islam after coming into contact wth Azan Peer, are now >>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>> longer >>>>>>>>>> referred to Assamese by us, the bloody immigrants, but only as >>>>>>>>>> Asomiya >>>>>>>>> Musalman. >>>>>>>>>> Did anyone ever refer to any of us as Assamese Hindu ? But we, the >>>>>>>>>> bloody >>>>>>>>>> immigrants, always prefix or suffix such terms with others.. Bongali >>>>>>>>> Hindu is >>>>>>>>>> another example. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No wonder, many of these people have now left us, others are trying >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> get away >>>>>>>>>> from us and while still others are in the process. It is therefore no >>>>>>>>> wonder, >>>>>>>>>> that the only community that wants to get close to us as >>>>>>>>>> Assamese(others >>>>>>>>> want to >>>>>>>>>> leave us anyway) i.e. the immigrants from present Bangladesh, are >>>>>>>>> shunned. And >>>>>>>>>> this in spite of the fact that there is no data on when they came as >>>>>>>>> immigrants, >>>>>>>>>> many had in fact come well before independence (as reported by the >>>>>>>>> Governor >>>>>>>>>> hujur in his report to the President.. see www.satp.org for the full >>>>>>>>> report). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The question of immigration is an age old one and there are >>>>>>>>>> thousands of >>>>>>>>> books >>>>>>>>>> and theories all around. The problem is not of immigrant, Chiranjit, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> perception towards immigrants. It is also a question related to >>>>>>>>>> electoral >>>>>>>>>> politics worldwide. You may like to refer to Samuel Huntington's >>>>>>>>>> theory >>>>>>>>> of Clash >>>>>>>>>> of Civilization. Why for example is Assam, the only state in India >>>>>>>>>> to be >>>>>>>>>> subdivided so many times ? Why is Assam the only state in India >>>>>>>>>> where our >>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>> "boys" are killing our own people ? And why is Assam, in spite of >>>>>>>>>> being a >>>>>>>>> small >>>>>>>>>> state, the only one which still wants more division, not only of the >>>>>>>>> tribal >>>>>>>>>> areas or the much feared greater Bangladesh, but of the such demands >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> Upor >>>>>>>>>> Axom and Namoni Axom ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Most importantly, ........., you seems to be confused of what >>>>>>>>>> constitutes >>>>>>>>> as an >>>>>>>>>> Assamese, as you said it is what one feels deep down...that is a >>>>>>>>> subjective >>>>>>>>>> decision. Are you an Assamese, I ask ?Trace your family history and >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> may find >>>>>>>>>> startling truths. Just because the British drew a line across >>>>>>>>>> Goalpara in >>>>>>>>> 1947, >>>>>>>>>> cutting the Koch areas in half, does not necessarily make the >>>>>>>>>> residents >>>>>>>>> on the >>>>>>>>>> other side as Bengalis, I think. >>>>>>>>> ............../.......................... and others >>>>>>>>>> from that belt, may even have some close relatives in West Bengal >>>>>>>>>> today.. >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> were they Assamese till 15th August 1947 and became Bengalis after >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> !!! huh >>>>>>>>>> !!! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The issue is too large and complex. But we, the people of Assam, >>>>>>>>>> need to >>>>>>>>> ask >>>>>>>>>> ourselves some basic question, and not go about opening lungis of >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> and getting a ........................ pleasure of seeing the >>>>>>>>> ..................... of a so called >>>>>>>>>> immigrant. After all, we referred to some at one time as "lengta >>>>>>>>>> Noga" >>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>> realising that we have always been quite naked ourselves ..... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would agree with ............ (for a change) that we have survived >>>>>>>>> since the time of >>>>>>>>>> Mahabharat, survived greater onslaughts of Mughals and Maan and a few >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> from Bangladesh cannot overrun us. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> More on the "great" saviour Gopinath Bordoloi later ...!!! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sanjiv Goswami >>>>>>>>>> (............) >>>>>>>>>> P.S. It became too long but I could write a thesis on this topic." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Uttam Kumar Borthakur >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> assam mailing list >>>>>>>>>> assam@assamnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> assam mailing list >>>>>>>>> assam@assamnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> assam mailing list >>>>>>>> assam@assamnet.org >>>>>>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> assam mailing list >>>>>>> assam@assamnet.org >>>>>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> assam mailing list >>>>>> assam@assamnet.org >>>>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> assam mailing list >>>>> assam@assamnet.org >>>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> assam mailing list >>>> assam@assamnet.org >>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> assam mailing list >>> assam@assamnet.org >>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> assam mailing list >> assam@assamnet.org >> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org > > > _______________________________________________ > assam mailing list > assam@assamnet.org > http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org >
_______________________________________________ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
