Ram:
The point is that killing a couple of guys, or even a few dozen, or hundreds are not going to reduce terrorism -- if they are NOT the terrorists. Maybe, these two guys WERE terrorists. But the story given by the police to prove that they were, don't add up. Not by a long shot. That leaves a reasonable person wondering, if the police actually did get a couple of terrorists, or they just made up the story. If they made it up, staged a fake encounter; would that enhance the law abiding citizens' sense of security? Or make it worse? You tell me. c-da At 8:07 AM -0500 11/19/02, Ram Dhar wrote: > > >Yes saar , a plot near Vegas will be great from me ... > > > >So are you saying that all those suicide bombers, the parliament attack, >attack in the J &K assembly , the temple attack were not sponsored by our >neighbors ? > > > >You expect indian security forces to be just a mute spectator and react to >each and every terrorist activity ? I am glad that you didn't write the >civil service exam in India to become a IPS officer. Killing two >terrorists for that matter whether it's fake or real is the right thing >police has done, it's as good as what CIA did in Yemen. Indian public >fully sympathies with the police action in Ansal plaza . > > > > The chapter is closed now. > > >From: Chan Mahanta >To: "Ram Dhar" , [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Subject: Re: ansal plaza incident >Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:55:15 -0600 >> > >MEA has proof that they were Pak nationals.... > > >Of course! >What could be more daminig than diaries with contact names in >Pakistan >and other telltale evidence, as were found on the 'terrorists' >bodies, >who have been evading police for months? > > >If you believe that Ram, >I have a choice acreage for sale in the Nevada >deserts for a resort, for >you :-). How gullible could we get? > > >cm > > > > > > > > > >>At 4:33 PM -0500 11/18/02, Ram Dhar wrote: > > > > > >>>>Where are the >friends and relatives of the victims? > > > > > > > >No one came fwd >to bury the dead, they were handed over to WAQT board > >(??) or whatever >that Muslim org is ...they did the last rites .Govt of > >India wanted to >hand over the bodies to Pak but they refused. MEA has > >proof that they >were Pak nationals....that's however a different story and > >Mr K Nayar >will write on this next year marking the anniversary of Ansal > >>shooting! > > > > > > > >Having said that it will be a good idea >actually to CHECK , RE - CHECK > >and CHECK the FACTS again with our CM >saar, his excellency Kuldip Nayar > >and Bidwai where the friends and >relatives of the victims are actually > >from ? > > > > > > > >>According to the sources -- Many of their friends and relatives are > >>enjoying a "stud muffins " healthy life in heaven with 72 virgin angels >> >, some of 'em are still awaiting orders from Mullahs to cross over to >> >India from Pakistan and kill the kafirs before they retire at their > >>'play boy mansion' in heavan . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: >D Deka >To: Chan Mahanta , Alpana Sarangapani , AssamNet > >>Subject: >ansal plaza incident >Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:57:12 -0800 > >(PST) > > >>Debating on these issues is healthy. Even if it doesn't > >solve the >real problem back home, it clears the conscience of the > >participants >in the debates. >I have a very simple question to the > >sleuths of the >net. Where are the friends and relatives of the victims? > >Normally >after such an incident, the journalists find the relatives, > >friends or >neighbors to interview. I have scanned the Indian newspapers > >but >haven't read any such interview. Were the victims local to Delhi? Or > >>is it simply that I missed the reports? >Dilip Deka > Chan Mahanta > >>wrote: > >Could Pakistan, Iraq, Iran or countries that are run by > >>dictators, boast of > >such freedom? > >Actually you can add many more: >> >China, Russia, Taiwan, Myanbmar -- what >have you. > >But a very low > >>threshold of a benchmark to weigh the largest democracy in >the world. > >>Besides, imagine the elation of the victims at what a fine >country India >> >is. > > > > > >It is heartening to know that in India people like > >>Nayar and others who can > >easily voice their opinions against the > >>establishment without being > >harrassed, do exist. > >Wake up A. What > >>do you call the following? > > >> The issue has got politicised with BJP >> >general secretary Arun > >> Jaitley accusing Nayar, me, and other > >>'so-called human rights > >> activists' of being 'the overground face of >> >the underground'. The > >> VHP wants us prosecuted as 'terrorist > >>accomplices'. Equally nasty > >> statements have come from other Sangh > >>Parivar figures. The VHP has > >> even demanded that the NHRC be renamed >> >National Terrorists' Rights > >> Commission. > >Those from the ruling >> >party and its supporters. Add to that what Assam >Netters branded them >> >recently fo that matter. And that what we know of. > > > > > > >This > >>is the only way when the government goes wrong it > >can be righted. > > >>>Let us not count the chickens before they are hatched. We know of > >>countless >such abominations that have been exposed, but NOTHING has ever >> >changed. > > >c-da > > > > >At 1:21 PM -0600 11/18/02, Alpana > >>Sarangapani wrote: > >It is heartening to know that in India people like >> >Nayar and others who can > >easily voice their opinions against the > >>establishment without being > >harrassed, do exist. This is the only way >> >when the government goes wrong it > >can be righted. > > > >Could > >>Pakistan, Iraq, Iran or countries that are run by dictators, boast of > >> >>such freedom? > >On a side note, Pakistan probably has more supporters >> >in India (including > >this net) than in Pakistan itself. > > > > >> > >>Praful Bidwai > >> > >> Encounters, Real and Fake > >> > >> It is not > >>usual for journalists, even those holding strong beliefs, > >> to become >> >public-interest litigants. So it is only with considerable > >> > >>deliberation that Kuldip Nayar and I decided last fortnight to > >> > >>approach the National Human Rights Commission with a complaint > >> > >>concerning what the police call their 'encounter' at Ansal Plaza, > >> > >>New Delhi's posh shopping mall, on the Diwali weekend, in which two > >> >> >'Pakistani terrorists' were gunned down. > >> > >> The last time I > >>initiated public interest litigation was 21 years > >> ago, when I moved >> >the Bombay high court in the pavement dwellers' > >> case. What >impelled > >me this time was the extraordinary nature of the > >> >circumstances of > >the Ansal Plaza 'encounter'. Both Mr Nayar --- one > >>> of our most > >respected journalists, with a distinguished record of > >>> defending > >human rights --- and I had been uneasy about the police > >>> version of > >the events. Then, on November 6, The Asian Age published >> >> a story > >quoting a Dr H Krishna who claimed to be an eyewitness to >> >> the event. > >He was emphatic that the 'terrorists' did not come to >the > >> Plaza in a > >Maruti car as alleged; they were brought by the >police; > >> they were > >unarmed, barely able to walk; the police killed >them at > >> point-blank > >range. > >> > >> Our complaint said that the >salient facts, including Dr > >Krishna's > >> account, are disturbing >enough to warrant an impartial > >inquiry. The > >> NHRC chairman, >Justice J S Verma, passed an order > >within minutes of > >> our meeting >him. He issued notice to the Delhi > >police commissioner > >> and >'anti-terrorism' Special Cell to respond to > >the adverse > >> >allegations, and directed them to provide 'immediate and > >adequate > >> >protection' to Dr Krishna. > >> > >> Since then, the > >'encounter' >controversy has become more heated --- > >> and murky. Doubts > >have >been cast on Dr Krishna's integrity and > >> character by raking up > >>old (apparently long-closed) cases filed by > >> estranged relations. But >> >the central issue is not his character, but > >> his role as a witness, >> >hinging on his presence at Ansal Plaza. The > >> Special Cell insists >he > >was not present in the Plaza basement. It > >> backs its stand by >citing > >'technical information' from a cellular > >> telephone company. >The > >police haven't disclosed the material facts. > >> Rather, they >have been > >leaking them selectively to 'sympathetic' > >> publications >and > >reporters. > >> > >> The issue has got politicised with BJP >general > >secretary Arun > >> Jaitley accusing Nayar, me, and other >'so-called > >human rights > >> activists' of being 'the overground face >of the > >underground'. The > >> VHP wants us prosecuted as 'terrorist > >>accomplices'. Equally nasty > >> statements have come from other Sangh > >>Parivar figures. The VHP has > >> even demanded that the NHRC be renamed >> >National Terrorists' Rights > >> Commission. And now, Prime Minister > >>Vajpayee himself has > >> rationalised human rights violations by saying >> >(November 11) that > >> 'tough decisions' have to be taken while >fighting > >terrorism, > >> sometimes 'even infringing some of our >freedoms and > >abridging some > >> of our human rights temporarily... so >that our future > >generations > >> can live in peace and harmony.' > >> >> >> This is a > >remarkably frank admission of what the Indian State >(like > >> some > >others) practises. Clearly, the Parivar has made the > >>> 'encounter' a > >loyalty test: Patriotism requires that we support the >> >> police; those > >who don't are working hand-in-glove with >terrorists. > >> The posture --- > >that you are either with the VHP-BJP, >or against the > >> Indian nation > >--- is rooted in unspeakable >arrogance. It equates > >> crass Hindutva > >with genuine patriotism, >based on India's > >> pluralist-secular > >Constitution. But let's leave >aside the BJP-VHP's > >> defamatory > >statements. What matter now are >the numerous > >> contradictions in the > >'encounter' theory --- even if >it is assumed > >> that Dr Krishna is an > >unreliable witness. Consider >the following: > >> > >> * Police > >Commissioner R S Gupta said the >police didn't have the > >> registration > >number of the terrorists' car >(The Times of India, > >> November 6). > >Joint Commissioner Neeraj Kumar >told The Indian Express > >> (November 4) > >they had no details on 'the >make or... number... [only] > >> a rough > >description of the two >men...' But hands-on Assistant > >> Commissioner > >and 'encounter >specialist' Rajbir Singh said: 'We had > >> ... the car > >number" (ToI, >November 4). The car was stolen in July, > >> but the FIR > >for the >theft was lodged two days after the 'encounter'. > >> > >> * The > >>police claimed the terrorists had two pistols, an AK-56 rifle > >> (in a >> >bag) and only 60 rounds of ammunition. If they wanted to wreak > >> > >>large-scale havoc in a prime shopping mall, why didn't they carry > >> > >>RDX, grenades, and more AK-56s? The two men were clever enough to > >> > >>enter India, travel to Maharashtra, Uttar Pradesh, and Kashmir in > >> > >>disguise, and concoct false identities, but so stupid as to leave > >> > >>their diaries in their pockets! > >> > >> * The police say the > >>terrorists fired 24 bullets, but they haven't > >> shown any spent > >>cartridges. No policeman suffered even a scratch. > >> Worse, contrary to >> >all professional and ethical norms, the police > >> handled the alleged >> >terrorists' weapons without gloves in the full > >> glare of television >> >cameras. As even a schoolchild knows, this is > >> not done if you want >> >to preserve fingerprints. > >> > >> * The police first claimed that the >> >encounter lasted 15 to 20 minutes > >> and involved 30 to 35 Special >Cell > >operatives using AK-56 guns. > >> Although these have small >(30-round) > >magazines, they fire at the > >> very rapid rate of 600 >bullets a minute! > >But instead of the huge > >> number of holes such >firing should have left > >in the basement walls, > >> there are only 13 >such holes. Later, the > >police disclosed that they > >> fired a total >of 52 rounds, and the > >'terrorists' another 24. But > >> they still >cannot account for a good 41 > >of the 76! > >> > >> * The police delayed >ordering autopsy on the two > >bodies by over 72 > >> hours. They claimed >there was a month's delay in > >the December 13 > >> case too. In fact, >that autopsy was done on December > >17. They said > >> they referred the >present matter to the home and > >foreign ministries; > >> the clearance >would take 20 days. Then, on > >November 9, they hastily > >> ordered an >autopsy. The only publicly > >disclosed sentence in the > >> autopsy >report gives an extra- medical > >opinion --- that fatal > >> 'shock' and >'haemorrhage' were caused by > >'firearms', and 'could have > >> been >sustained in a police encounter'. > >Doctors cannot determine > >> this. >> >> > >> * The police claim that > >19 eyewitnesses 'confirm' their >account. But > >> none of those paraded > >on television say they >actually saw the > >> terrorists shooting. > >> > >The police failed to >summon independent ballistic experts. They > >> > >claim they were >tracking the terrorists for three months. But they > >> > >didn't know >their whereabouts even a few days before the shootout > >> > >--- despite >cell phone tracking! > >> > >> * Pictures show one dead man > >clutching >his pistol. Ballistic experts > >> and physiologists say that > >under >heavy fire, the victim's first > >> reaction 'is to release > >whatever >they are holding'. It is hard to > >> believe the weapon wasn't > >>planted after the event. > >> > >> The Delhi police have a lot of > >>answering to do. They claim, on the > >> strength of cell phone records, >> >that Dr Krishna only reached Ansal > >> Plaza two hours after the > >>encounter. According to an IIT Madras > >> telecom expert, cell phone > >>records can only give the approximate > >> location (with 1 to 1.5km) of >> >a user. More precise information > >> (within, say, 100 to 150 metres) >> >can only be obtained if calls are > >> tracked on the basis of advanced >> >authorisation --- impossible in Dr > >> Krishna's case, short of an > >>odious deal with the police. The fact > >> that the user's record shows >> >s/he accessed one cell (one of many > >> transceivers in a mobile > >>network) does not prove s/he was nearest > >> that cell. If one cell is >> >busy, the call is diverted to another. > >> > >> The murky nature of > >>these events has impressed itself firmly on the > >> public mind. > >>Thinking people everywhere are asking: was this > >> encounter calculated >> >to spread fear and insecurity, and thus > >> 'normalise' the use of > >>indiscriminate force? Why does the home > >> minister appear at the site >> >of each terrorist event? Is he trying to > >> create the impression >that > >he alone can defend citizens against > >> terrorism? Is there a >deeper > >game? Why should a policeman, even Mr > >> Rajbir Singh --- >involved in > >six of seven 'encounters' in 2000 --- > >> risk an >'encounter' without > >the assurance of apex-level political > >> >support? > >> > >> These > >troublesome questions must not be ducked. Too >many people are > >> being > >killed after being designated 'terrorists'. >In J&K, no fewer > >> than > >1,296 have been shot dead this year. Andhra >Pradesh alone > >> records > >250 'encounters' a year. In Uttar Pradesh, >there were 150 > >> custodial > >deaths in 2000. In India, each year, >over 2,000 habeas > >> corpus > >petitions are filed, but largely >ignored. This is > >> unacceptable. > >Terrorism must be fought --- one >might even say, on > >> war footing. But > >only a lawless, barbaric, >State fights it with > >> summary, brutal and > >cruel methods --- which >are the terrorist's own > >> evil hallmark. > >> > >> >> Even wars have >to be fought lawfully. Rules of warfare are > >> > >incorporated in >various Geneva Conventions and international > >> > >treaties. The State >cannot summarily extinguish human life. The > >> > >police have no right >whatever to do so. That is the function only of > >> > >a court of law. A >State that kills terrorists on mere suspicion > >> > >itself practises >terrorism. Many condone this on the assumption that > >> > >a few >'excesses' are permissible because the real enemy is Pakistan. > >> > >>This view is dangerously wrong. Tomorrow's 'terrorist' --- the > >> > >>Special Cell's target --- could be you. Citizens are no more secure > >> >> >against State brutality than against militant terrorism. > >> > >> -- > >> >>> saurav > >> > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Do > >you >Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > >MSN 8 with >e-mail virus protection service: > >2 months FREE* >Add photos to your messages with <http://g.msn.com/8HMUEN/2021>MSN 8. >Get 2 months FREE*.
