I have no problem with what Jugal proposes here--mostly. *** However:
1: It might be my ignorance, but it appears to me that a substantial impediment in arriving at an UNIVERSAL SYSTEM of transliteration applicable to both for computer key-board typing and for ordinary writing of Oxomiya in Roman letters is the incompability of being true to Oxomiya sounds while attempting to keep in step with a Indian sub-continent languages standard. I can appreciate the benefit of adhering to the subcontinental standards. It makes for better communication, which is good for everyone. I am no Assamese language ( or any language for that matter) ideologue or chauvinist or purist. Actually quite the opposite.But still I do not and will not follow a Devnagari or other system to be in conformity with a subcontinental or world system which sacrifices the unique attributes of what the Oxomiya language is made up of. Pronunciation -- the sounds of its words--is such an attribute to me; in all its local variations, be it from Jokaisuk or be it from Nalbari. It is for this reason that I see the value of a well developed and widely accepted system of transliteration. And I have no problems with the idea that this maybe different for using a keyboard to type Oxomiya fonts and for using the standard Roman letters for typing Oxomiya words. 2: I agree that OXX ( or AXX) has not demonstrated an ability to lead on anything, inspite of having been staffed by highly talented and perfectly well meaning individuals. As such, I agree that if some standard has to be set, it will more than likely happen outside the house of OXX/AXX. But yes--it would be good to have such a standard blessed by the nominal keepers of the Oxomiya language identity. 3: I don't mean to get into the minutiae of the technicalities her, but I have trouble understanding and accepting: >As an exmaple, it seems to me, that it is awkard to use "O" for the first >letter of the Assamese alphabet in transliteration. Why is it so? Why for example would it sound more right to write the word 'odhom' as 'adhom'? Or for that matter the word 'ohingxa or ohingxaa' as 'ahimsa'? I also find it totally redundant to chase 'dirgho-ee' ' dirgho-u' and the like. I can see the problem of transliterating a word like 'wroni' ass either 'uroni' or 'ooroni'. Neither of the latter two are intuitive, while the first is somehat awkard. But is it really awkard? The English word WHY does not look awkard. Nor does WHETHER or WHIMSICAL. It is for this reason that I think the solution suggested by Rajen, to use the letter 'w' or 'W' to represent the Oxomia 'W' sound as in 'wbhwt maat' ( profane word) or 'bhwta or bhWta toraa'. There will certainly be some cases where it would be not exactly an easy or fluid and totally intuitive soultion. ** My layman's reactions. c At 8:56 AM -0600 7/25/03, J Kalita wrote: >Chandan da's point about users of a transliteration scheme: >--------------------------- >I think the number of people who train on the ISCII keyboard is miniscule: >those who go to typing schools, those who work in printing presses, and those >who work in newspapers and magazines. I have some good friends who >have top jobs in newspapers and magazines in Assam, but even they themselves >don't know how to type in Assamese since they use the normal keyboard >to type on computers. They have to go to their "computer technicians" >when they want something typed in Assamese. > In the foreseeable future, I don't see the ISCII keyboard >gaining prominence on the standard Roman computer keyboard, anywhere >including Assam. > >The Trend and the Dangers: >------------------------- >Meanwhile, more and more people are buying computers in Assam and getting >connected to the Internet. The first thing that comes to one's mind who >buys a computer that, in the computer world, Assamese has no place, >and that they have to communicate in English in their >email and chat, the fastest growing and only useful applications to most >people, and that using Assamese is not an alternative. So, they will >start writing in English, possibly bad English, to their friends and family, >with whom they would never imagine talking in English in real life. Many of >us do this regularly on Assamnet! This spells >a bad omen for the continued use of Assamese as a medium of communication >by the educated and the elite of Assam, because these are the people who >can afford to buy a computer. > >Axom Xaahitya Xabhaa, TU and IIT, Guwahati: >--------------------------------------- >So, whether Axom Xaahitya Xabhaa likes it or not, a translitertion scheme is >to be found. If necessary, we have to let Axom Xaahitya Xabhaa follow >others in this effort. I have gone to several AXX (district & central) >offices, talked to several past Presidents of AXX, and >been to their homes and offices. Pardon my insolence, but I don't see >AXX leading in this process. AXX has no individuals, as far as I know, who >know, understand or use computers well. Later ratification by AXX, if >anyone comes up with a translitertation scheme, wil be beneficial, because >AXX is the most respected organization in Assam in the field of language >and culture. This is my own opinion and I don't mind if I am criticized >for it. >But, I know Tezpur University and IIT, Guwahati, have individuals doing >research >on Assamese language in the context of the Internet and these people should >be involved. I have been to these institutions and seen their work. Their >involvement >will legitimize the effort as well. > >Shyamanta's Burden or Leadership: >------------------------------- >Instead of presenting his own scheme, Shyamanta should research into what >other schemes have been proposed and put them side by side for comparison >and discussion. To tell you the truth, Shymanta, Saurav or Rajen-da or >whoever >is not considered an authority on Assamese, and hence, to have some weight >in the discussions, we have to put many minds together. What we lack as >individuals in terms of recognition and acceptance, can be overcome by >a joint effort. The jointness of the effort must be emphasized from the >beginning. > >Context-Dependent Transliteration >--------------------------- >As an exmaple, it seems to me, that it is awkard to use "O" for the first >letter of the Assamese >alphabet in transliteration. I would rather write "Axom" instead of "Oxom". >There are other examples of such context-dependent transliteration. >Hence, contextual transliteration may be a good thing. It is not uncommon >to do such things contextually, looking at one (or more) letter(s) backwards >and forwards. It is not uncommon to use probablistic models to perform >such tasks. >Those who know how speech processing (say, in English) takes place (of >course, >after signal processing), the techniques used to "transliterate" from >written representation of the sound signals (or, phonemes) to actual spelling >are based on probability. The Viterbi algorithm, the most popular and >successful >algorithm for such purposes, is based on the so-called Hidden Markov Models, >i.e., based on a lot of statistics and probability if ignore the technical >mumbo-jumbo. Contextual transliteration >for Assamese to Roman fonts would be a lot simpler than speech processing. > >Jugal Kalita > > >> >> >> >> S Saikia said on AssamNet: >> >> + >> + Hi sauravda, >> + >> + I guess we were talking at cross purposes all this while ! I wrote in >> my + very first post, >> >> >> hmmm....maybe we aren't talking at cross purposes. i am trying to >> emphasize one aspect of the problem. and we will have to find some >> middle ground. otherwise the transliteration scheme will not become a >> standard. >> >> what are the real needs of a transliteration scheme? and how big is the >> demand? there exists a standard assamese keyboard, and an >> encoding system, defined by iscii. fonts have been developed that >> follow this encoding scheme, which will finally be accepted by the >> unicode consortium. most of the assamese printed matter that exist >> today are available in this scheme. daily newspapers, magazines and >> books are being printed. these are typeset by professionals who >> train on the iscii keyboard. the transliteration scheme, imo, >> should have a one to one mapping with this. >> >> on the other hand, there exists a group of people who are used to >> the roman keyboard, and who will never learn the iscii keyboard. >> they are casual users. they are using the internet to write in >> assamese -- emails and chats. imo, they are important users of the >> assamese language too. the transliteration scheme should be able to >> bring this brand of casual users closer to the real thing. >> >> the first step has been taken. you took the devnagri scheme and >> modified it for assamese. my suggestion is that it has not been >> modified enough. >> >> first, rajen-da has suggested that we forsake the horso e/ dirgho e >> difference. this, imo, would be a bad idea. but rajen-da's scheme can >> be made into a subset of the formal scheme by using "i"/"ii" and >> "u"/"uu" in the formal system, for example. then rajen-da's scheme can >> be easily read by a formal reader, and vice-versa. a similar >> mapping can make "prothom so" and "ditiyo so", (eg. "c" and "cc" or "s" >> and "ss"), so everyone can read each other's writings. this >> would mean that with a little effort, a casual writer can easily >> begin writing assamese with the correct spelling. this, imo, is >> important if we want to attract young and inexperienced writers to begin >> using the system. >> >> second, the "o" instead of "a" is important for the casual writer, as >> well as those who wants to write naturally (e.g jugal kalita). we >> should give a serious thought to this. jugal-da mentions there are some >> technical difficulties. maybe we should try to solve them. >> >> "Chandra Kanta Bharali" and "condro kanto bhorali" is not a real >> problem, because "condro kanto bhorali" is written in >> transliteration, not in english. there is a difference. my name >> would be "xourobh" or something like that. and i have no problem >> with it. my guess is, if your transliteration scheme becomes >> popular, many people will prefer to write their names in your scheme, >> and not in the regular english spelling. my guess is, we will >> increasingly see "xonjoi", "jugol", "sondon", "xoikia" etc. >> >> most importantly, this transliteration scheme will form a bridge >> between the casual/opular users of the assamese language and >> the traditional forms and spellings of the language, and also will serve >> for the academic community. and this precisely is the job of >> transliteration, imo. your scheme is clearly a start and should >> evolve keeping these points in mind. what it should not do is add one >> more scheme, and add to the profusion of schemes. i believe a group in >> tezpur university has also evolved a scheme. are you >> a part of it? if not, maybe you should be aware of their efforts >> and needs too. >> >> finally, i think some common standard has to be imposed. >> there are many oxom xahityo xobha members on this net. maybe you >> can influence them to press the organization to evolve a common >> standard. (does the xohityo xobha have a new media division? has it >> done something about this?) >> >> saurav >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> + "This scheme is not meant for use in software program just becaue it >> is too + complicated and scores of more practical systems can be >> figured out to do + the same ... " >> + When I prepared the scheme I did it so that we can write Assamese >> words + (esp names of people, places, songs etc) in Roman font without >> losing or + trying not tose their original phonetic quality so that >> even a person + inexperienced in Assamese can read it. I didnt think >> of writing down the + roman font and getting back the assamese fonts >> thru some software at that + time... But now your question seems to be >> how to MODIFY the phonetically + correct (really !?) scheme so that >> people can intuitively use it in + softwares, emails etc.. The 'o' u >> propose is DEFINITELY superior to my + paltry 'a' while typing for the >> layman... >> + >> + Now there are two things we can do about the 'a'/'o' perplexity.... + >> >> + 1. Change the original scheme and use 'o' as a Universal Standard. + >> 2. Use 'o' in "roman-input-to-assmese-font-output" softwares and use "a" >> + while writing Assamese words in english.. >> + >> + If we use the "o' as an universal standard we might face quite a few >> + problems ....e.g., as Mr. Rabin Deka pointed out .....we will write >> Chandra + kanta Bharali or Chondro Kanto Bhorali ?? Thats why I guess >> using 'o' when + we r using "roman characters as input and want to get >> assamese characters + as output" and using 'a' when ' we start from >> assamese characters but wanna + get roman characters as out put' >> should be a better suggestion.... + >> + Thanks for ur advice >> + >> + >> + Syamanta Saikia >> + >> + >> + >> + >> + >> + >> + >> + >> + ---------------------------------- >> + >> + Saurav Pathak Wrote: >> + >> + syamanta-da, >> + >> + i accept your arguments. but the purpose of suggesting "o" instead + >> of "a" was to make native speakers comfortable with the >> + transliteration, not foreign speakers. as jugal-da pointed out, the >> + "a" makes it uncomfortable. i use transliterated assamese sometimes >> + in my personal emails. and to me "o" came naturally. >> + >> + i am afraid that if the native speaker doesnot feel comfortable, he + >> will desist from using it, and then there will be no need for a + >> scheme anyway. >> + >> + on the other hand a standard, widely accepted scheme has many >> + advantages. >> + >> + saurav >> + >> + S Saikia said on AssamNet: >> + >> + + >> + + >> + + >> + >> + _________________________________________________________________ + >> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >> + http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus >> + >> + _______________________________________________ >> + Assam mailing list >> + [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> + http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam >> >> -- >> saurav >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Assam mailing list >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > >_______________________________________________ >Assam mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam _______________________________________________ Assam mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam
