Hi Chan,
The question is will India ever dare to do that?
*** Exactly! Beggars usually don't get to be choosers--to put it bluntly. Particularly when the beggar happens to be a tyrant that escaped justice.
But we are missing the real important part of the story, which is, that the USA and other major and mature democracies do not exactly respect Indian democracy very much. And not just that, informed and thinking Indians do not either, whether in India or whether abroad.
As a thinking Indian, Mridul Bhuyan ought to be asking the hard question about the quality of Indian democracy, and not take insult with Modi being insulted, and deservedly so. If Modi is a symbol or made into a symbol of Indian national pride then India deserves every bit it got on this, and more.
Yes, I am also of the same opine that India will never dare to do that atleast in the near future. But I sincerely wish that someday India will be in a position to tell US to mind its own business and not to poke its nose to others toilets. The problem is that being in the debt trap India is in, I doubt if that’ll ever happen.
Regarding Indian democracy, irrespective of others, that you have mentioned, I respect Indian democracy inspite of giving birth to so many Laloos, mulayams, advanis, modis. It will definitely take time to improve upon the things with billions of illiterate people on board, and the damage inflicted upon by the Nehru Dynasty. I have faith in the younger generation. As an proud Indian, I make it a point to cast my vote to help elect the right candidate, unlike many ‘thinking Indians’, who deliberately express their disrespect for Indian Democracy by not casting their votes, enjoying election day as a holiday and thereby help the laloos etc. to win.
The other point about Modi being made a symbol of Indian national pride, I am personally not a modi supporter and will never be able to support BJP’s policies. I belong to a place in Assam called ‘Shivasagar’, where the muslims still use ‘aaiti’, ‘baaiti’, ‘kokaiti’ to call their mothers, sisters & fathers. I have been very very close to some of the members of the muslim community and they are like my family members. But that doesn’t mean that you should take advantage of your religious freedom and intimidate the people in the other side. I am not at all a religious person. I have never been to Ajyodhya and Kashi, but happen to visit Mathura with my parents. I feel disgusted at the disrespect, shown by
tyrannical Mughal rulers towards Hindu religion. But that doesn’t mean that you also do the same. When the Christian missionaries convert people taking advantage of their economic condition, we call it religious freedom and if a hindu protest this, he is communal.
I had been in US for long enough to get a fair idea about the country. The difference lies in population, education and the way they look at life. But be aware, India is not far behind.
Anyway, I have tried to express my feelings, hope it doesn’t hurt anybody’s feelings.
Regards
Mridul
>From: Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "mridul bhuyan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>CC: assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
>Subject: Re: [Assam] From the ToI/US denies visa to Modi-some more
>Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:06:55 -0600
>
>At 12:37 PM +0530 3/21/05, mridul bhuyan wrote:
>>The question is will India ever dare to do that?
>
>*** Exactly! Beggars usually don't get to be choosers--to put it
>bluntly. Particularly when the beggar happens to be a tyrant that
>escaped justice.
>
>
>But we are missing the real important part of the story, which is,
>that the USA and other major and mature democracies do not exactly
>respect Indian democracy very much. And not just that, informed and
>thinking Indians do not either, whether in India or whether abroad.
>
>
>As a thinking Indian, Mridul Bhuyan ought to be asking the hard
>question about the quality of Indian democracy, and not take insult
>with Modi being insulted, and deservedly so. If Modi is a symbol or
>made into a symbol of Indian national pride then India deserves
>every bit it got on this, and more.
>
>That should be the lesson. Not a misplaced sense of hurt.
>
>*** USA did not do what it did because it is keeping tab on the
>sordid goings on in Indian democracy. USA does not give a hoot about
>who Modi is or what he did. They have their own troubles. There was
>not mention in a major US newspaper about this topic. USA did what
>it did as a RESPONSE to its American-desi
>constituency. Obviously those desis who saw the Modi invitation as
>an affront to their ethnic identity obviously won the day.
>Apparently this controversy has been brewing for sometime. India
>Abroad predicted , with input from their 'sources' that Rice would
>not block Modi's visa. Turned out to be different.
>
>Now if Indian democracy and its commitments to the rule of law and
>its ability to serve the cause of justice commanded a respect from
>the USA, it would not have done what it did on the Modi case.
>Similarly on the Fernandes strip search case ( even though the
>'strip-search' was a false terminology applied).
>
>Again, does the USA have a bureaucracy dedicated to monitoring the
>quality of desi-democracy? Very unlikely, other than the usual,
>cursory monitoring. But the there are many thoughtful and
>progressive US based desis who do. In this case, THEY made the
>difference.
>
>
>*** I am not attempting to gloss over or ignore USA'a own
>hypocrisies or the lapses of its own democracy. But they did not go
>seeking a VISA for Rumsfeldt or Wolfowitz, that India might have
>denied, and thus would have retaliated by denying it to Modi. Here,
>again the beggars don't get to be choosers axiom applies,
>particularly when the beggar also happens to be a tyrant. Had he
>been a saint, or even an ordinarily-corrupt-but-not-a-tyrant desi-CM
>of a beggar, there would not have been a problem. Just look at all
>the cms, even Kharkhowa cms, including the late Sworgodeu who came
>with a retinue of servants for medical treatment in the USA. So did
>PM, so did TG. Maybe Laloo too. Who knows who else?
>They were not snubbed by the US.
>
>Should not that tell us something?
>
>The problem, my friend, is in the inability to separate to good from
>the bad.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> I don't think so. Although there's no reason why India can't do
>>it? What about the dual policy adopted by the USA? After the death
>>of Indira Gandhi, thousands of sikhs were messacred in Delhi by the
>>so called secularist party like the congress. What about the
>>Russians doing the same in Russia? How many have been denied visa
>>by the USA? Who's USA to look into it's neighbour's (even if they
>>are poles apart) affairs ? Why don't they dig into their own affair
>>and be content? How are the Indians behaved by the so called
>>natives of the US? On the contrary, the americans are treated like
>>somebody from other planet in India. Indians still fascinate to be
>>ruled by white skin.
>>
>>Or is there something else behind the denial of visa to Mr. Modi by
>>the US? How the defence minister of India be frisked like a
>>criminal? Why the white house releases a statement even when
>>somebody in their own country heaves a sigh? B'cos USA believe they
>>can do anything. Why countries like India, Pakistan has to sign the
>>neuclear non-proliferation treaty? What about USA?
>>
>> >From: Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >To: "mridul bhuyan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >CC: assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >Subject: Re: [Assam] From the ToI/US denies visa to Modi-some
>>more
>> >Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:28:37 -0600
>> >
>> >> >Think about denying a visa to Mr.Powel for his role in Iraq.
>> >
>> >
>> >*** And why not?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >At 12:11 PM +0530 3/19/05, mridul bhuyan wrote:
>> >>I am not going to comment on the hindu-muslim issue. But I
>>object
>> >>to the denial of a 'Diplomatic' visa after Govt. of India
>> >>recommending it. Its an insult to GOvt. of India. Think about
>> >>denying a visa to Mr.Powel for his role in Iraq.
>> >>
>> >>Mridul Bhuyan
>> >>
>> >> >From: Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> >To: umesh sharma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> >>assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
>> >> >Subject: Re: [Assam] From the ToI/US denies visa to
>>Modi-some
>> >>more
>> >> >Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:00:16 -0600
>> >> >
>> >> >Hi Umesh:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >At 9:58 PM +0000 3/18/05, umesh sharma wrote:
>> >> >>C-da,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>I am not an expert on international visa law- but if we
>>start
>> >> >>giving visas based on our perception of what happens in
>>other
>> >> >>countries --then I would say that we are interfering in the
>> >>affairs
>> >> >>of that nation.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >*** There is no such thing as Int'l Visa Laws. Each country
>>has
>> >>its
>> >> >own rules, and often have agreements or understandings for
>> >> >reciprocity etc. with other countries. And the more powerful
>>or
>> >> >influential a nation is, the more arbitrary they can get
>>about
>> >>what
>> >> >they choose to do.
>> >> >
>> >> >However the US not granting a visa to Modi or whoever, does
>>not
>> >> >constitute interference with another country's internal
>>affairs.
>> >> >That complaint of interfering with the internal affairs of
>> >>another
>> >> >country usually emanates from people attempting to keep
>>their
>> >> >internal dirt under their rug. Unfortunately, or fortunately
>>in
>> >>this
>> >> >case :-), there are people here in the USA who have an
>>interest
>> >>in
>> >> >what goes on in India. I am certainly pleased to see that
>>the
>> >> >progressive desis here including Muslims ( I don't
>>automatically
>> >> >exclude them)
>> >> >chose to raise their voice and send a signal.
>> >> >
>> >> >Not that it is going to hurt Modi. If anything he will now
>>be a
>> >> >greater hero to all his supporters, all those rioteous :-)
>> >>Hindus
>> >> >who believe that India is theirs and Muslims don't belong
>>there.
>> >>Who
>> >> >knows, he might become the supreme leader of the BJP now.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>I do not know whether it is supposed to be ethical that if
>> >>there is
>> >> >>a fight going on in a neighbor's house -- then you stop
>>letting
>> >>a
>> >> >>member from that family into your own house. That is what
>> >>Modi's
>> >> >>visa stoppal amounts to be.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >*** Good analogy. What do you think? Would you consider your
>> >> >neighborly and human duty to interfere with the guy
>>next-door
>> >> >attempting to butcher his children? What do you think of
>>Indira
>> >> >Gandhi's interfering with Pakistan's internal affair when
>>they
>> >>were
>> >> >slaughtering B'Deshis?
>> >> >
>> >> >c-da
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Umesh
>> >> >>
>> >> >>PS: I mentioned about the truth being what the powerful say
>>--
>> >>an
>> >> >>instance -- the Union Carbide (USA's MNC) killed 10,000
>>people
>> >>in
>> >> >>Bhopal in Dec 1984 and maimed 200,000 (and thats a very
>>hard
>> >>and
>> >> >>concrete fact) .
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Still India dare not ban it from its land --for the fear
>>that
>> >>all
>> >> >>US based MNCs would stop coming to India or that India
>>would
>> >>stop
>> >> >>getting defense supplies from powerful USA. If India had
>>been
>> >> >>powerful - its truth would have prevailed and Union Carbide
>> >>(and
>> >> >>its current owner Dupont) would be banned from India. But
>>weak
>> >> >>India cannot implement something which is the truest of the
>> >>truths
>> >> >
>> >> >*** Business-interests often trump justice, doesn't it? What
>>do
>> >>you
>> >> >think of it?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>What is your belief, Umesh?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>And how do your colleagues at Harvard view it, if you have
>> >> >>discussed?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>At 7:02 PM +0000 3/18/05, umesh sharma wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>Modi should be ready to reap what he sowed -or what he
>>seemed
>> >>to
>> >> >>>sow. truth is what the powerful believe.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Umesh
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>US denies visa to Modi, India lodges protest
>> >> >>
>> >> >>INDIATIMES NEWS NETWORK[ FRIDAY, MARCH 18, 2005 06:32:13 PM
>>]
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Sign into earnIndiatimes points
>> >> >>
>> >> >>NEW DELHI: India on Friday lodged a strong protest to the
>>US
>> >>for
>> >> >>its "uncalled for" decision to deny visa to Gujarat Chief
>> >>Minister
>> >> >>Narendra Modi and sought an "urgent reconsideration".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The US had rejected Modi's application for a diplomatic
>>visa,
>> >> >>saying his proposed visit failed to meet the conditions for
>> >>such a
>> >> >>permit.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The consulate also revoked the tourist/business visa
>>already
>> >> >>granted to Modi, the US embassy spokesperson David Keneddy
>> >>said,
>> >> >>apparently for ignoring widespread anti-Muslim killings in
>>his
>> >> >>state in 2002.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Mr Modi's existing tourist/business visa was revoked
>>under
>> >> >>section 212 (A) (2) (G) of the Immigration And Nationality
>> >>Act,"
>> >> >>Keneddy said.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "This section makes any foreign government official who
>>'was
>> >> >>responsible for or directly carried ou! t, at a! ny time,
>> >> >>particularly severe violations of religious freedom'
>>ineligible
>> >>for
>> >> >>a visa."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hours after the US revoked Modi's tourist/business visa,
>> >>issued
>> >> >>in 1998, and denied him diplomatic visa to travel to that
>> >>country
>> >> >>on Sunday, External Affairs Ministry summoned US Head of
>> >>Mission
>> >> >>and conveyed its protest.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> US Deputy Chief of Mission Robert Blake, who met Foreign
>> >> >>Secretary Shyam Saran for 30 minutes, said that he had
>> >>explained
>> >> >>the reasons for the decision and India had asked Washington
>>to
>> >> >>review it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> External Affairs Ministry spokesman Navtej Sarna told
>> >>reporters
>> >> >>that the US Embassy action was "uncalled for and displays
>>lack
>> >>of
>> >> >>courtesy and sensitivity towards a constitutionally-elected
>> >>chief
>> >> >>minister of a state of India".
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>The Ministry of External Affairs called the Head of the
>>Mission
>> >>to
>> >> >>lodge a strong protest against the denial of visa to Modi
>>and
>> >> >>requested "urgent reconsideration" of the decision, he
>>said.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sarna said government "expressed its deep concern and
>>regret
>> >>that
>> >> >>the US embassy has denied a visa to Narendra Modi,
>>honourable
>> >>Chief
>> >> >>Minister of Gujarat to the US for an event organised by the
>> >> >>Asian-American Hotel Owners' Association".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Spokesman said the visa had been requested by the
>> >>Ministry
>> >> >>through a Note Verbale to the US Embassy on February 28
>>this
>> >>year.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Asked about the US response, the Spokesman said that
>>Blake
>> >>had
>> >> >>promised to convey this to his authorities including the
>> >>request
>> >> >>for reconsideration and to revert.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Blake said Saran "expressed Government of India's concern
>>and
>> >> >>regret over the decision the US government took."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Blake said he explained to Sarna that it was based on
>> >>American
>> >> >>law. Blake said t! he Fore! ign Secretary suggested that
>>the US
>> >> >>should review the decision because of Government of India's
>> >> >>concern.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Noting that he would report it back to Washington, Blake
>> >>evaded a
>> >> >>reply when asked whether the US would review the decision.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Earlier in the day, External Affairs Minister K Natwar
>>Singh
>> >>had
>> >> >>said India would take up the issue with the US.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Singh is also believed to have met Prime Minister
>>Manmohan
>> >>Singh
>> >> >>over the issue.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>_______________________________________________
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