C'da,
> **** Ram, you are confusing the means with the ends. No, democracy > does not feed us, does not give us health-care, does not educate us. > It is a process, a mean, a tool--to build the social institutions > that can help feed us, educate us, shelter us, look after our > collective well-being. Am I? We were discussing the issue of elections and whether national leaders ought to be allowed into Assam politics. So, with elections, also comes the concept of democracy. Rajib said it well. Why do you NOT want national leaders to butt into Assam politics? And why stop there, as Rajib said, why not NOT let state leaders not butt into local elections in Dibrugarh or elsewhere? The fact that democracy does not feed us ..., health care, ......(which I agree), is way off topic, and spinning out of control. > Democracy must not to be a license to steal Assam's resources, to > manipulate Assam's governance for outsiders' benefits. And who says it should? No one is advocating that here. But my point is simply this: If the leader of the AGP wants to bring in a top national leader to prop him up during elections, who am I, you or ULFA to object. That decision should be left solely to the party concerned. And if these national leaders butt into Assam polititics, and the people feel agrieved, then who better to give them a fitting reply than the voters? What, I am against is the concept that ULFA threatening to curtail the freedom of political parties, and thus in turn the Assamese voting public to choose whom they want to invite and whom not to. > **** That is because the AGP did not realize that the system they > attempted to play in is faulty, dysfunctional, stacked against > Assam's interests in many ways. So, have they realized it now? Isn't the AGP still contesting in this election cycle too? And that too in the same dysfunctional system? Whats wrong with the picture here, C'da? >No matter who the local parties are composed of, if they cannot re-orient their >system of governance, they are bound to meet the same fate. They will have to >change the rules of the game, not just change the players. What rules are we talking about? You surely don't mean the draconian ones set by the election commission? > *** A return to the ol' ands empty 'people are bad--nothing is the > matter with the system argument'! Heh! Heh! Heh! - its similar to the one about system of governance. > That is your prerogative Ram. I will not attempt to tell > you what to do. But do you think anyone with reasoning abilities will > buy that? The very fact that ULFA is holed up in Bangladesh, only weakens the the state of affairs in Assam as far as illegals. B'desh govt. finds yet another loophole. Then extracting any valuable info from their guests shouldn't be a big deal . *** Ah, so it is the many press statements--spin to be precise, that > you bank on. Don't about others, but thats where I get most of the info on these matters. It could be spin, but I have seen many on this net BANK heavily on press reports whenever there is something negative about Indian goveranace, corruption etc. I supppose, those kinds of news reports must be the gospel. >I am opening up an > unprecedented opportunity for YOU at becoming a hero >against the ULFA and a guardian angel to the spinners -- don't waste it. Show >your > shtuff Ram :-). I am sure I didn't make the grade. As for 'heroism', I would be more comfortable in my present catatonic state:). --Ram On 8/4/05, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 12:19 PM -0500 8/3/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote: > >C'da, > > > >> But let me ask you this: Is it good for Assam, for its elections to > >> be INFLUENCED by remote interests from elsewhere in India? > > > >If it is democracy that we all yearn for, > > > > **** Ram, you are confusing the means with the ends. No, democracy > does not feed us, does not give us health-care, does not educate us. > It is a process, a mean, a tool--to build the social institutions > that can help feed us, educate us, shelter us, look after our > collective well-being. > > Democracy must not to be a license to steal Assam's resources, to > manipulate Assam's governance for outsiders' benefits. That simple. > > > > >Yes, one would think regional parties would benefit the state, > >specially when they are in power. Well, the AGP showed us how much the > >state benefitted when they were in power. > > > **** That is because the AGP did not realize that the system they > attempted to play in is faulty, dysfunctional, stacked against > Assam's interests in many ways. No matter who the local parties are > composed of, if they cannot re-orient their system of governance, > they are bound to meet the same fate. They will have to change the > rules of the game, not just change the players. > > > > > > >I don't think local self-govt by itself solves problems. The make-up > >of the parties, the people within, will make the difference - whether > >they are AGP or the Congress. > > > *** A return to the ol' ands empty 'people are bad--nothing is the > matter with the system argument'! > > > > > >And not such outside influences are all bad as you make it out to be. > > *** I didn't say that. But show us the GOOD influences brought in by > outside political influences to Assam: > > Is it vote banking? > Keeping two books and not paying taxes? > Graft and bribery? > Legendary Indian bureaucracy? > Hinduttwa? > Casteism? Dowry and bride burning? > > I can go on and on. But I hope you get the idea. > > > > > > >>But can you show how ULFA is either encouraging illegal migration, > >or causing >polarizations in Assam? > > > >Many press statements from the ULFA tells us that they are soft on > >illegal immigration. > > > *** Ah, so it is the many press statements--spin to be precise, that > you bank on. That is your prerogative Ram. I will not attempt to tell > you what to do. But do you think anyone with reasoning abilities will > buy that? > > > But tell me what those who have been hard on --- I mean not soft on > -- illegal migration, done for Assam? Talk is cheap Ram--you know > that well. Show us some action. > > > > >If Bangladesh was my mai-baap, I too would support illegals > >coming into Assam or elsewhere. > > > *** Yeah? How? By ULFA cadres wiping out Indian border security > forces to open the floodgates, to let B'deshis into Assam without > restraint? > > *** By writing clandestine articles in BD papers encouraging border-crashing? > > *** By not manning the security posts along the border, instead > blowing up school children in Dahakuakhana or Republic Day parades at > Judges' Field? > > *** By not joining the chorus of BD Muslim Kheda intellectuals in > Assam or in Assam Net? > > How ? Give us a few examples. Even those that might pass muster as > barely credible will do. You would not disappoint us here would you, > by changing the subject? It is your chance to come to the defence of > all the clueless spinners who make the argument but never can > substantiate it. However unintentionally, I am opening up an > unprecedented opportunity for YOU at becoming a hero against the ULFA > and a guardian angel to the spinners -- don't waste it. Show your > shtuff Ram :-). > > > > > >ULFA may think that they were chosen by providence to represent all > >Assamese, but the fact is there are Assamese who think and believe > >they are Indian, in adition to being Assamese. > > > *** It is NOT about labels Ram. It is not about appearances. You, of > all people, ought to know better than that. > > > > > You, I and others here in this forum have an obligation, a duty, to > raise the level of the discourse. Not because we are God's gift to > humanity, but because we have had the exposures, had the opportunity > to experience and observe better, effective ways to order our > collective well-being. It is unfortunate that we tend, so often, to > spout meaningless propaganda instead of dealing with substance. > > > c-da > > > > > > > > > > > > > > then why should influences > >from outside the state bother you or anyone. This is of course > >assuming that ONE believes that Assam is still an integral part of > >India. > > > >Do you think, that if there were only regional parties, that would not > >employ the same tactics to divide people in some way or the other > >(just as the national parties do) to win elections? > > > >Yes, one would think regional parties would benefit the state, > >specially when they are in power. Well, the AGP showed us how much the > >state benefitted when they were in power. > > > >I don't think local self-govt by itself solves problems. The make-up > >of the parties, the people within, will make the difference - whether > >they are AGP or the Congress. > > > >Lets take the national parties. Whether its the Congress or UPA or > >whatever, are the people up for elections in Assam representing these > >parties NOT ASSAMESE? > >Woudln't you think that they would have the best interests of Assam > >(before party)? > > > >This influence stuff that you are dishing out, Cda, boils down to > >this: If the Assamese people let others influence they will be, if not > >they won't. > > > >And not such outside influences are all bad as you make it out to be. > > > >>But can you show how ULFA is either encouraging illegal migration, > >or causing >polarizations in Assam? > > > >Many press statements from the ULFA tells us that they are soft on > >illegal immigration. And its not difficult to understand that > >position. If Bangladesh was my mai-baap, I too would support illegals > >coming into Assam or elsewhere. > > > >I visualize at least two. > > > >If one were to assume that ULFA has supporters in Assam, obviously > >they are poles apart from those Assamese who would wish to remain > >within India, and consider themselves Indian. > >ULFA may think that they were chosen by providence to represent all > >Assamese, but the fact is there are Assamese who think and believe > >they are Indian, in adition to being Assamese. > > > >The other of course, is with illegal immigartion (which ULFA has not > >vehemently opposed or taken a strong stand), a number of minority > >groups are also starting to support illegal immigration. This of > >course is polarizes an already polarized state. > > > >--Ram > > > > > >On 8/3/05, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> > >Of course, we are all well-wishers of Assam. But what has that go to > >> >do with ULFA's 'interest' in an election conducted by Indian > >> >authorities. > >> > >> > >> > >> *** Unlike me or you, ULFA is made up of people, who, rightly or > >> wrongly, claim to represent the wishes of the people of Assam. Their > >> constituency, their supporters, also believe that Indian political > >> machinations have hurt Assam's interests. > >> > >> You may not accept that. But that is different. > >> > >> > >> > >Who is the ULFA to tell the Assamese whom they should or shouldn't > >> >invite from Delhi? > >> > >> > >> Same explanation here. > >> > >> > >> > >Why do you assume that just because some minister comes down from > >> >Delhi to lecture, it is necessarily bad or polarizing for Assam. > >> > >> > >> Come on Ram, you keep missing the obvious: ULFA does not recognize > >> Indian controls over Assam. That is why they are telling Indians to > >> keep out. It is not about whether it might be good or bad for Assam. > >> > >> > >> But let me ask you this: Is it good for Assam, for its elections to > > > be INFLUENCED by remote interests from elsewhere in India? > >> > >> > >> > >Assuming ONLY regional parties participate in the elections, how will > >> >that benefit ULFA? > >> > >> > >> I cannot speak for ULFA. But I am of the belief that Assam's > >> interests are best served by political parties who are rooted in > >> Assam, and whose elections are not interfered with by outside > >> interests. That is what local self-government is all about. > >> > >> > >> > >All of this just pure humbug. What the ULFA is probably trying to do > >> >is to draw some attention to themselves. They have been left out to > >> >dry for a while, so passing a Dikat here and a Dikat there might > >> >actually bring the spotlight on them. > >> > >> > >> You may be right, or you may be wrong. Neither has anything to do > >> with the premise of the original argument and conclusions, that > >> started this debate. > >> > > > > >> > >> >As for polarization problems, sitting cozily in Bangladesh, passing > >> >dikats, and encouraging illegal immigration does more to polarize than > >> >anything else. > >> > >> > >> You can spin it anyway you wish. But can you show how ULFA is either > >> encouraging illegal migration, or causing polarizations in Assam? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> At 11:03 AM -0500 8/3/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote: > >> >C'da > >> > > >> >> If you were to be an independent > >> >>observer and well-wisher of Assam, would that seem unreasonable or > >> >>bad for Assam ? > >> > > >> >Of course, we are all well-wishers of Assam. But what has that go to > >> >do with ULFA's 'interest' in an election conducted by Indian > >> >authorities. They are the ones passing out dikats left and right, and > >> >basically infringing upon the free will of the Assamese people (not > >> >you and I). > >> > > >> >Who is the ULFA to tell the Assamese whom they should or shouldn't > >> >invite from Delhi? Don't the Assamese in Assam know what is or what is > >> >not polarizing, instead of having the ULFA intelligensia forcing them > >> >to think otherwise and dictating behavior? > >> > > >> >Why do you assume that just because some minister comes down from > >> >Delhi to lecture, it is necessarily bad or polarizing for Assam. When > >> >Assam had no regional parties, was Assam more (or less) polarized than > >> >it is now? > >> > > >> >Assuming ONLY regional parties participate in the elections, how will > >> >that benefit ULFA? > >> > > >> >All of this just pure humbug. What the ULFA is probably trying to do > >> >is to draw some attention to themselves. They have been left out to > >> >dry for a while, so passing a Dikat here and a Dikat there might > >> >actually bring the spotlight on them. > >> > > >> >As for polarization problems, sitting cozily in Bangladesh, passing > >> >dikats, and encouraging illegal immigration does more to polarize than > >> >anything else. > >> > > >> >--Ram > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >On 8/3/05, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> > >Huh! So, it now seems that inspite of ULFA NOT recognizing Indian > >> >> >rule, they are still interested in an election conducted and > >> >> >participated by the Indians. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> **** I can't answer that. I was merely examining the logic of the > >> >> original post, and the conclusions drawn. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> But one thing can be surmised: That the ULFA is attempting to prevent > >> >> interference of Indian political parties and injection of regressive > >> > > Indian attitudes and polarizing influences into Assam society. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >So, the more important question would be, how does it > >>matter who wins > >> >> >the elections in Assam to ULFA? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> **** ULFA could very well be interested in that. Even I could be :-). > >> >> I certainly would not want to see communal polarizations grow in > >> >> Assam, fanned on by Indian Hindu supremacist bigots.Would you ? It > >> >> could also bee to discourage political corruption spurred on by > >> >> Indian black-money and vote-banking > >> >> and other nefarious activities. If you were to be an independent > >> >> observer and well-wisher of Assam, would that seem unreasonable or > >> >> bad for Assam ? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> At 9:00 AM -0500 8/3/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote: > >> >> > >Considering that ULFA does not recognize India's rule over Assam, > >> it > > > >> >>makes all the sense in the world to them to not allow an occupying > >> >> >>power to interfere in the elections of its state. > >> >> > > >> >> >Huh! So, it now seems that inspite of ULFA NOT recognizing Indian > >> >> >rule, they are still interested in an election conducted and > >> >> >participated by the Indians. > >> >> > > >> >> >So, the more important question would be, how does it matter who wins > >> >> >the elections in Assam to ULFA? Is the ULFA fielding some candidates > >> >> >too, and that too an election managed and mandated by the Chief > >> >> >Election Commissioner of India. > >> >> >In the end, the ULFA seems to want to behave like another 'political > >> >> >party' in India (albeit an extreme one). > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >On 8/3/05, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> >> Considering that ULFA does not recognize India's rule over Assam, > >> it > > > >> >> makes all the sense in the world to them to not allow an > > occupying > >> >> >> power to interfere in the elections of its state. Would India > >> allow > >> >> >> Pakistanis or BDeshis or Americans to come canvass for elections > >> in > >> >> >> it's territory? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The question,at best, demonstrates an absence of ordinary > >>inferential > >> >> >> skills, no doubt resulting in absurd questions like: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >Or else, guess what will happen? I wonder what kind of > >> >> >> >a democracy will be there in independent Assam. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> --- one having little or no connection with the other. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> At 10:14 PM -0700 8/1/05, Rajib Das wrote: > >> >> >> > >> > >> >>>http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story3%2Etxt&counter_img=3?headline=ULFA~diktat:~No~entry~for~'outside'~vote-seekers > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >Another tactic this time. Not allowing central leaders > >> >> >> >of national parties to campaign in Assam. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >Or else, guess what will happen? I wonder what kind of > >> >> >> >a democracy will be there in independent Assam. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >__________________________________ > >> >> >> >Yahoo! Mail for Mobile > >> >> >> >Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. > >> >> >> >http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >> >> >Assam mailing list > >> >> >> >Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu > >> >> >> >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >Mailing list FAQ: > >> >> >> >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > >> >> >> >To unsubscribe or change options: > >> >> >> >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >> Assam mailing list > >> >> >> Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu > >> >> >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Mailing list FAQ: > >> >> >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > >> >> >> To unsubscribe or change options: > >> >> >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > >> >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Assam mailing list > >> >> Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu > >> >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > >> >> > >> >> Mailing list FAQ: > >> >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > >> >> To unsubscribe or change options: > >> >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Assam mailing list > >> Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu > >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > >> > >> Mailing list FAQ: > >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > >> To unsubscribe or change options: > >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > >> > _______________________________________________ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
