Some interesting syntax ideas here: https://rise4fun.com/Dafny/nbNTl. This is probably pretty readable to ATS programmers.
On Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 11:49:54 AM UTC-5, Brandon Barker wrote: > > Apparently there is at least one example of Shake being used for the JVM: > https://github.com/typelead/eta-benchmarks > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Brandon Barker <brandon...@gmail.com > <javascript:>> wrote: > >> Ya, I really wish I had more experience with Haskell to give it a fair >> comparison to Scala, but I get what you are saying. Compared to the >> alternative 1 (Java) it is quite a bit less verbose, and compared to >> alternative 2 (JavaScript), I'd say it is similar, but probably still less >> verbose aside from type annotations. However, as we're talking about >> JavaScript, I think it a fair trade! >> >> I wasn't suggesting ATS inherit the deficiencies of Scala, such as its >> limited means of TCO (largely if not wholly due to limitations of the JVM; >> I know ScalaNative plans to expand TCO functionality) or any unnecessary >> syntax. I was just using it as an example that worked well for me; it >> generally does a good job of allowing you to get work done with what you >> know, without having to get entangled in more advanced features until you >> are ready (or think you are ready, anyway). >> >> I am curious what the technical grounds you have for being against any >> use of Scala whatsoever; sounds like it would be useful to know about. >> >> As for shake, looks like the site (hackage) is down when I tried just >> now, but looking at https://shakebuild.com, I'll say it looks >> interesting, and sounds as though it may be good for complex builds >> (involving multiple languages). I'd love to give it a try - looks like it >> hasn't been used much for the JVM, so not sure when I'll get time to try. >> >> Scala string interpolation works by providing an implicit value class for >> Strings, which then can have additional methods, like the 's' method: >> s"hello $name", so s is called on the following string. It isn't quite that >> simple, here's the full details: >> https://docs.scala-lang.org/overviews/core/string-interpolation.html >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 7:52 PM, <vamc...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote: >> >>> I'm actually not a huge fan of Scala syntax, simply because I find it >>> verbose and I believe that it is not suited to functional programming in >>> general. If there are reasons to support methods and whatnot, then I would >>> be more amenable to it. >>> >>> As for build systems, I think that shake >>> <http://hackage.haskell.org/package/shake> is probably good to have. >>> I've learned a lot of lessons from language-ats, and I believe I could >>> write a language-xanadu package that worked and stayed up-to-date with the >>> actual compiler. This would (among other things) make builds much, much >>> simpler. I am against any use Scala on technical grounds, and shake is much >>> better established, having led to several published papers. I actually kind >>> of like the versatility and portability of make/configure, but I should be >>> able to maintain a shake-xanadu package as well to provide an >>> alternate/simpler solution. >>> >>> I'm also not really sure how string interpolation works in Scala. I know >>> Rust does something at the macro level, so that may be an option - it would >>> allow errors to be generated at compile-time. >>> >>> On the ATS front: I am curious as to how ATS optimizes tail recursion. I >>> know Scala doesn't actually optimize tail recursion (unless the values are >>> of the same type) which is immensely limiting in practice. A lot of >>> interesting stuff (e.g. monadic recursion) relies on such optimizations in >>> practice. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Vanessa M. >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 10:52:49 AM UTC-6, Brandon Barker wrote: >>>> >>>> Glad to see this thread is here. I will just share some general >>>> thoughts for syntax as my ATS is a bit rusty: >>>> >>>> 1. I like Scala style syntax - I think it is easy enough to read, >>>> unless maybe you are doing stuff at the type level, where ATS seems to >>>> have >>>> an advantage over Scala. I think Scala is similar to python in a lot of >>>> ways (especially with Python 3.6 typing styles), aside from making >>>> indentation part of the syntax. My thought is that Python doing this helps >>>> to force people to write somewhat readable code (think beginner Python vs >>>> beginner Perl), but I think we can assume that if you are coding in ATS, >>>> or >>>> at least publishing code in ATS, you will be sensible enough to have some >>>> kind of good programming style. So I would vote for leaving indentation to >>>> a style checker/linter. >>>> 2. Concision: I sadly don't know Idris or Haskell, and am very tempted >>>> to learn one of them to get a better appreciation of them, but I'd rather >>>> focus on ATS again. However, I do appreciate that they are concise, even >>>> more so than Scala, which is generally laudable. >>>> 3. Feature hiding: Facilitate the principle of least powe >>>> <http://www.lihaoyi.com/post/StrategicScalaStylePrincipleofLeastPower.html>r. >>>> >>>> ATS has a lot of advanced features, as does Scala (of course ATS has >>>> more). >>>> Scala is pretty good at letting you hide them. I swear, I'd been coding in >>>> Scala for 3 years and was still amazed at how simple you could make the >>>> code if you try - just take a look at http://www.kogics.net/kojo - it >>>> is nearly as easy as python I would say, and preferable to me. The lack of >>>> types in the coding examples is almost annoying to me, but I understand it >>>> is beneficial to young readers. Now, I'm not saying we can do all this in >>>> ATS, but Scala is so named because it is a "language that scales with >>>> you", >>>> and I believe ATS is this too, but it would be good to make that scaling a >>>> bit more smooth, like climbing a Olympus Mons >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Mons#/media/File:Olympus_Mons_Side_View.svg> >>>> >>>> rather than K2. >>>> >>>> >>>> Other goals: >>>> - Build systems: I think cross builds are very important as already >>>> stated. In scala land, there is Scala (JVM), scala.js, and now >>>> scala-native. Usually, we can create cross builds by having some source >>>> that is platform independent (e.g. APIs/interfaces/types) and other bits >>>> that are platform specific and rely on the platform independent bits. This >>>> is great. Related to this, I actually think it may be worthwhile looking >>>> into an existing build tool with a larger community rather than using make >>>> and autotools, which seem to me a bit antiquated and unfriendly to other >>>> platforms. I recall Hongwei and I were both a bit jaded by our experience >>>> with using gradle, so I'm both excited to say Mill >>>> <https://github.com/lihaoyi/mill> looks like a promising alternative, >>>> though I'm also hesitant to make a suggestion after the last failure with >>>> Gradle :-) But I believe a lot in Mill's stated goals, especially insofar >>>> as they overlap with CBT's <https://github.com/cvogt/cbt> and the idea >>>> of being designed to support multiple languages. If we can agree that >>>> Scala >>>> isn't terrible, I say let's not reinvent the wheel, and try to comingle a >>>> bit with them. This could be beneficial for both communities. Let's think >>>> about using their build tools. At the moment, Mill seems to be creating a >>>> lot of excitement, so it might be worth looking into it first. >>>> >>>> I'll try to give more concrete feedback in the future. >>>> >>>> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 1:15:22 PM UTC-5, gmhwxi wrote: >>>>> >>>>> For the moment, I just want to open a thread for ATS3. >>>>> >>>>> I decided to pick ATS/Xanadu for the full project name. I like the >>>>> name Xanadu >>>>> because it is poetic and brings a feel of exoticness. >>>>> >>>>> ATS3 is supposed to be compiled to ATS2. At least at the beginning. I >>>>> will try to >>>>> write more about what I have in mind regarding ATS3. >>>>> >>>>> I know that a lot of people have been complaining about the syntax of >>>>> ATS2. So >>>>> we can start the effort of designing some "nice" syntax for ATS3. >>>>> Please feel free >>>>> to post here if you would like share your opinions and ideas. >>>>> >>>>> I will be happy to take the lead but we definitely need to have some >>>>> form of community >>>>> effort on this project given its size and scope. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers! >>>>> >>>>> --Hongwei >>>>> >>>>> PS: I felt rushed every time up to now when implementing ATS. This >>>>> time I am hoping >>>>> to have the luxury of thinking about implementation a bit before >>>>> actually doing it :) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>> Google Groups "ats-lang-users" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/ats-lang-users/mjS9NtQz6Pg/unsubscribe >>> . >>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>> ats-lang-user...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >>> To post to this group, send email to ats-lan...@googlegroups.com >>> <javascript:>. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/ats-lang-users. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ats-lang-users/876a2928-ab2c-4e50-814f-6f85696fb7f5%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ats-lang-users/876a2928-ab2c-4e50-814f-6f85696fb7f5%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Brandon Barker >> brandon...@gmail.com <javascript:> >> > > > > -- > Brandon Barker > brandon...@gmail.com <javascript:> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ats-lang-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ats-lang-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to ats-lang-users@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/ats-lang-users. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ats-lang-users/130a72fa-c698-4da6-b50e-aff8e179e489%40googlegroups.com.
