Adam,
For various reasons we don't team fly at our Nationals, I agree it is not a
kindergarten - so we don't need anyone to hold our hands as a team.
I am with Matt and Tim, say 5% [or whatever you think team flying is worth] and
lowest score of the team counts! :]
Gary,
I expect individual Pilots to win here, that said a team member won 15M today.
Kerrie says Hi back.
Tom
________________________________
From: Adam Woolley <aussiejuniort...@hotmail.com>
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
<aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Sent: Monday, 8 August 2011 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth?
Untitled Document
Sadly the Australian competition scene isn’t strong enough to uphold what
I’m about to suggest, so I know it wont happen (until we can get back to the
100+ regular entrants again).
The Nationals is just that, the
nationals. Not a kindergarten or beginners comp, or a place we go to fold
envelopes. A Nationals. I say, if you don’t like the heat –
then get out. Since meeting Dave McManus and becoming best mates, my life
long ambition is to represent Australia, and see Dave win World Gliding
Championships. Me, I’m happy with 2nd place – which in effect is also a
win. Dave strengths are in inter-thermal cruising, mine are in the
climbs. Yes, Dave and I can practice these skills on weekends, but what’s
important is to practice against other effective teams (and great solo pilots)
under pressure. Not weekend soaring pressure, but competitions where we’re
forking out a few thousand dollars – to make it real!
Winners can also be solo pilots too, absolutely – many have done this, and
against amazing teams. Kawa against the red hot GER’s (Mario Kiessling and
Michael Buchthal) at the SK WGC last
year. Edwards in Uvalde! plenty to mention. I just wish I
could be this good!
If the team hasn’t got a special bond like the three young Brits @ the
JWGC’05, whom placed 1st, 2nd and 3rd, or like Dave and I. Then the ‘team’
is destined to ... (or should I say, not get on the podium). I can’t
believe we send solo pilots to worlds that say they’re going to team fly, it
spells disaster right from the start. Quite often these solo pilots are
from opposite sides of our massive country, which almost have no opportunity to
practice. Dave and I flew 200hrs in team formation (plus 2 x DUO flights)
before going to the UK. In the end, we practiced so much that if we had a
comm failure (which we actually encountered three days before the end of the
jnr
worlds), we could team fly without talking on the radios! Having said all
that, I’d be more happy to sponsor a team if they said, “We’ll co-operate and
pass on information daily, however we’ll be flying our own race once the start
gate opens”. Which is exactly how the jnr STD Class team for GB is going
to go this year, as they’ve identified that if they fly as a team – the overall
result will be worse.
In AUS though, if we did allow team flying again – as Tim said, ‘the
Nationals fleet dwindle again’. Which is ultimately what all of us don’t
want to happen. So sadly, for the next 5 or so years – I have to support
the ‘no team flying’ argument.
In the ideal AUS gliding world of course, I’d say no team flying in the
Regatta’s (unless it’s a purpose run team comp!), Easter Comps and States.
Team flying (max three to a team) allowed in the Nationals. Don’t like the
heat, then get out – we’re not here to fold envelopes!
Cheers,
WPP
From: Tim Shirley
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 9:18 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating
to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it
worth?
Two
things matter about team flying - results, and perceptions. Results
because that's how you win the silverware, and perceptions because that is what
drives participation. Or not.
If team flying didn't help, people
wouldn't want to do it. If team flying does help, it is then unfair to
those who can't do it or who want to start off in the sport but don't have a
team.
In what other sport, is it OK to play singles on one side of the
net and doubles on the other, and have the doubles players tell you that it
doesn't really help and they only do it for social reasons?
Experience
for those with long memories, is that rampant team flying is at least one of
the
factors that drives newcomers away. That may be from a perception that the
sport is a series of small closed groups that no one is allowed to join.
It you want to see the Nationals fleet dwindle again, that's one way to do
it.
Cadel Evans didn't win the Tour de France without his team. But
notice that in that sport, everyone is in a team, and the strength of the team
contributes to the strength of the leader, and team members are happy to (or at
least, are paid to) sacrifice their results for the leader and the team.
In gliding, the equivalent would be that certain team members (let's call them
"domestiques") fly off as soon as the gate opens, mark thermals for the leader,
and then just cruise home at the back of the peleton. I was at a
gliding World Comps where that happened - one pilot having lost a realistic
chance of a top result, then actively flew for the success of the other team
member in his class. But in that case it came from an offer by the second
pilot, not a request from the team.
If the team players really want to do
this, I have a suggestion. Fly as a team, declare your intentions, and
have each team member score the LOWEST score achieved by a member of the team
on
each day - and at the end of the comp it is the team not the individual that
wins. Would you still want to be in a team under these rules?
Alternatively, have a separate Teams class.
I think that
teams should either be mandatory, or banned.
Cheers
Tim
tra dire e
fare c'è mezzo il mare
On
8/08/2011 1:22, gstev...@bigpond.com wrote:
Hi Tom,
>Good to hear from you. Re your earlier post on Mac and the Diana 2, my
>understanding of this situation is that landing problems are about par for
>the course! Take-offs too in this ship are also supposed to be quite
>interesting, probably for exactly the same reasons you alluded to. I am
>somewhat surprised that the production factory is still going - if indeed it
>still is! Apart from anything else the owner BB seems to have (or had? - does
>the leopard change its spots?), an attitude problem. I have had some slight
>dealings with him in the recent past. My experience was not that his attitude
>was the problem, but the fact that the man would mostly not answer any
>straight question, posed to him.
>Re your response to my latest post - it is an interesting aside. Do you
>really expect these two day winners to be on the podium at the end of the
>contest? What is your real belief re team flying? If you think team flying
>improves the chance of a team member winning, don't be a wooze - answer my
>question. Say hi to Kerrie for me. Have fun.
>Cheers,
>Gary
>
>----- Original Message -----
>>From: tom claffey
>>To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
>>Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:06 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth?
>>
>>The two winners at Uvalde yesterday did not team fly! :]
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>> From: "gstev...@bigpond.com" <gstev...@bigpond.com>
>>To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
>><aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
>>Sent: Sunday, 7 August 2011 11:59 PM
>>Subject: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth?
>>
>>
>>
>>Hallo All,
>>Preamble
>>For years, there has been robust debate in this country, on the subject of
>>team flying in Australian Competitions. Some pilots are strongly for it,
>>some strongly against it, and some are ambivalent. Some pilots have been
>>known to change their viewpoint, when their own circumstances change!
>>It is generally acknowledged, that in any modern competition, where the
>>practice of team flying is allowed, (such as a World Championship), GOOD
>>team flying is essential if any team wants to get at least one of their
>>members onto the podium. I have used the word "GOOD" quite advisably,
>>because, like everything else in gliding, it takes considerable time and
>>practice to perfect the necessary skills.
>>
>>****************************************************************
>>That is of course the rub. How can this practice be carried out? This is not
>>the question here, but Allan Barnes, a member of the DDSC has seriously
>>considered this particular question and offered some suggestions. In
>>passing, I suggest here, that if the team changes, then it is probably
>>necessary to return to the basics, at least in the short term, to develop
>>the essential trust and rapport that is required in this exercise. I would
>>expect that two pilots who are experienced team flyers (but not with each
>>other), can far more quickly become a new team, than a team made up of any
>>other combination such as: Two pilots who have never team flown at all; a
>>team of one experienced team flyer, and one pilot who has never team flown
>>before. A further interesting question is "what is the ideal team size"? My
>>own suspicion is that to a limited extent, more is better. In the world of
>>professional bike racing, the team size is 9 riders. In
gliding at World level, I think 3 pilots per class is the official limit, so
I suspect that the possibilities of a team larger than 3 has never been
explored! Can perhaps some research dollars be obtained (to the greater good
of Oz gliding, and indeed World gliding), to explore this subject? I am
certain that there is the odd PhD or two that could be obtained here, and the
pilots in the studies would of course have to undergo maybe hundreds of hours
of team flying in the interest of this research! What a bugger!
>>
>>**************************************************************
>>The Question
>>For the sake of this post, assume that we have a team of two pilots who are
>>competent in team flying. They are pitted against many individual pilots. As
>>outlined above, we know that there is an advantage in team flying.
>>So the question is "what do YOU think is the percentage advantage of the
>>team flyers over an individual pilot under 'normal' Australian Summer
>>conditions." As every exam paper demands - state why you formed this
>>viewpoint.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Gary
>>
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