It seems there is a bit of cherry picking going on here, using isolated parts of accident reports to justify positions/arguments. An accident is far more complicated than any one factor/cause.
Air New Zealand The data entry being discussed was long strings of lats and longs. No letters/names for context thus not a fair comparison to our sport. Not only are humans likely to make a mistake entering this data but we're unlikely to identify a mistake when we cross check it! Emirates To address the specific points made: > This is the frightening bit: Not so frightening, just poorly written by the author. The computer applied precisely the amount do thrust it was told to - by the pilots. In a round about way, this is what happens. When the pilots manually enter the aircraft weight data (zero fuel weight, fuel load, maximum takeoff weight) and the environmental conditions, a calculation occurs that returns the lowest possible thrust required to meet the requirements for a worst case scenario takeoff (basically, lose and engine at the worst time, get airborne before the asphalt runs out and don't hit anything as you climb away to a safe altitude). These figures are entered as a derate of the engine and a flex (Airbus) or assumed (Boeing) temperature - basically the aircraft is lied to and told it is really hot outside so it reduces thrust to protect itself. Reduce thrust = less wear & tear = saves money. At takeoff, the pilots move the thrust levers forward and demand the calculated takeoff thrust. So if the computer did the right thing, what happened? Of the weights mentioned above, the zero fuel weight was mistakenly entered as the takeoff weight. The computer calculated thrust and speed settings for a much lighter aircraft and this error wasn't detected. Now, here's were it gets a bit more complicated.... Boeing: Boeing believes in Autothrottles. They manually back drive the thrust levers to move to a given position that equates to a given thrust. Using this system, there is a higher likelihood of picking up an unusually low thrust setting as the throttles aren't as far forward as "normal". Airbus: Airbus believes in Autothrust. Unless used manually (abnormal situations), the thrust levers are mode selectors, putting the autothrust into takeoff mode, climb mode, etc. From flight idle to climb power and everything in between, the thrust levels do not move. In both systems, maximum rated thrust is available at any time by slamming the thrust levers forward. > having an acceleration monitor... A great idea! Airbus has worked for many years on such a system and it's now (finally!) offered on the A380. That's about 130 aircraft out of a global airliner fleet of 29,000. An acft systems manufacturer has done the same so non-Airbus air acft won't be left out so in time, it will be offered on more aircraft. But! it's adoption will be hampered by cost of implementation and it will be a long time before it's common, if ever. Also, as far as I know, it's only designed for landing, not take-off. Bit the same position vs accel/decel theory applies so why not? > having flight crew familiar enough... Those of us that come from a powered flying background have probably rejected a takeoff due to the perception of insufficient thrust. Was it fouled plugs after a long taxi, a dead mag or a cracked jug? Who knows. Thankfully, the lack of excess performance in a light aircraft means even relatively small reductions in thrust can be perceived by the operating pilot. In transport category, airline aircraft this is not the case. They operate through such a huge weight range and have so much excess thrust that such pilot perception is rarely, if ever possible. Think of the weight of a 777-300ER that flies for 15hrs from New York to Hong Kong and then does a quick Taipei turnaround (1hr 40min each way). At max weight, the fuel load of a B747 weighs as much the aircraft, passengers, baggage, cargo and catering put together! Turnpoint nomenclature It's my (naturally, subjective) opinion that a combination of numbers and letters be used. The numbers: - speed input where glide computers use turn and pull/push data entry (knob twisting) - give added individualism to similar place names The letters (names): - give context (Wpt 47 doesn't mean a whole lot by itself) My personal technique: 1). Delete all waypoints from your planning software (in my case, See You). You can always save them first for fast recall later. 2). Load only the waypoints for the competition/gliding site you are attending. This will prevent you from flying to duplicate place names and or places you've previously entered using different coordinates to the official set. 3). Create your task and do a gross error check. Are the tracks and distances the same as provided by the Comp Director? 4a). Load into your Nav device and/or recorder, in my case a Oudie and a Nano. Once loaded check the waypoints and their respective lat/longs in each device. What you had in SeeYou was the RUMOUR, what you have in the device itself is the FACT, and what you'll be scored on. 4b). If transferring via SD card / USB stick etc to a panel mounted Nav system, great. But do the check outlined in 4a once it's loaded. 5). Go, fly fast, win, collect accolades and adoration.....ok this bit might be a little harder :) Casey iPad transmission > On 10 Jan 2014, at 9:30, aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net wrote: > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > aus-soaring-ow...@lists.internode.on.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Turnpoints (Terry Neumann) > 2. Re: Turnpoints (Mike Borgelt) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:35:36 +1030 > From: Terry Neumann <tfneum...@internode.on.net> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> > Message-ID: <52cf2b40.9020...@internode.on.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > >> On 10/01/2014 8:47 AM, opsw...@bigpond.net.au wrote: >> If people wish to continue with using just numbers they should revisit the >> Air NZ accident in Antarctica. Individuals working alone, no cross checking >> and inputting at dark O'clock. Sooner or later you will have a very >> uncomfortable experience. >> I've seen it time and time again even in professional aviation. > Yes indeed. This one > <http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/wrong-computer-numbers-caused-emirates-jet-to-almost-crash-at-melbourne-airport-20090430-ao17.html> > > was very close to home, and perilously close to being Australia's worst > air disaster. The essential message is in the first couple of paragraphs. > > tn > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20140110/aceab97e/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:55:54 +1000 > From: Mike Borgelt <mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Turnpoints > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> > Message-ID: <582af2$o16...@ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > This is the frightening bit: > > "the aircraft computer applied vastly less thrust " > > Is there something wrong with having the computer > work out the power setting required and have the > flight crew move the throttles to the required setting? > > Or having an acceleration monitor with a liftoff > prediction once the thing starts moving? > > Or having flight crew familiar enough with the > aircraft to know that the thrust setting called > for, at a weight you should have some feel for, seems wrong? > > Mike > > > .At 09:05 AM 10/01/2014, you wrote: >> On 10/01/2014 8:47 AM, >> <mailto:opsw...@bigpond.net.au>opsw...@bigpond.net.au wrote: >>> >>> If people wish to continue with using just >>> numbers they should revisit the Air NZ accident >>> in Antarctica. Individuals working alone, no >>> cross checking and inputting at dark >>> O'clock. Sooner or later you will have a very uncomfortable experience. >>> I've seen it time and time again even in professional aviation. >> Yes >> indeed.? >> <http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/wrong-computer-numbers-caused-emirates-jet-to-almost-crash-at-melbourne-airport-20090430-ao17.html>This >> >> one was very close to home, and perilously close >> to being Australia's worst air disaster.? ? >> ? The essential message is in the first couple of paragraphs. >> >> tn >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> To check or change subscription details, visit: >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of > quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 > www.borgeltinstruments.com > tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 > mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 > P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20140110/028e0a02/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 124, Issue 22 > ********************************************
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