Spot on, Richard. Well put. I've experienced clubs where outlandings are seen as part of the fun, and some where they are seen as a major problem. Guess which group has the lower turnover?
-----Original Message----- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Richard Frawley Sent: Monday, 16 February 2015 3:29 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Early XC Gents A few observations if I may: 1. At the right site with the right forecast conditions, with an experienced XC coach, a 3 hour XC flight in DUO or DG1000 presents a very low chance of out landing - It makes sense that any initial XC flight should be selected with a low risk scenario and flight plan in mind. 2. Its makes perfect sense to prepare the tailer, car and equipments for any extended XC flight, just as the majority of us do when flying comps. Its not that hard nor is it that time consuming, it just a matter of sensible preparation and pre-agreed operational procedures. 3. In many clubs where they have now invested in higher performance gliders, many of those gliders are now being taken by coaches and members to comps and training weeks, so the chance of the trailer and equipment being is good condition and properly available is consequentially higher. 4. The value of introducing low time pilot to the joys of XC flying early on seems undisputed. 5. With proper preparation and with appropriate safety measures being observed, out landings can also be a very enjoyable and rather interesting part of our sport. I have met some very interesting folk on the land and have had some memorable experiences, and I know many others have had the same. 6. It also makes sense to have the right might set about out landings established early on. Out landings are to very much to be respected, but they should not be feared, either from a cultural or operational perspective. The sooner the respect for the risks and the necessary safety steps embedded, the safer the pilot is likely to be. Regards Richard At 10:44 PM 15/02/2015, you wrote: >Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > aus-soaring-ow...@lists.internode.on.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Early X/C pilots (rolf a. buelter) > 2. Re: Early X/C pilots (Harry ) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 13:18:25 +1100 >From: "rolf a. buelter" <rbuel...@hotmail.com> >Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots >To: aus soaring <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> >Message-ID: <blu177-w20fe89c1e0e9f72798e820c0...@phx.gbl> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > >Dear Gary, > >I beg to differ from your opinion. On a lazy Sunday afternoon I'm happy >to embark on a cross country coaching flight in our Duo as I expect to >be back in time for a refreshing drink and still return to my home at a >christian time. With an ASK 13 and an crappy old trailer I expect to >outland, spend three hours in a fly blown paddock and then 2 hour in >the dark to put the glider into a crappy old trailer, return to the >airfield around mid night and be in my bed earliest 1 am Monday. >Besides all that I inflict the same fate on at least 3 other fellow >club members. N.B. - a flight within gliding range of an ASK 13 to the >aerodrome does not qualify as a x-country coaching flight. At best it >represents some thermalling practice. >To conclude a couple of personal questions, which you don't have to >answer if you prefer not to: >How many cross country coaching flights have you conducted over the >last 24 months? >How many of those were in an ASK 13 or similar performance glider? >How many of these gliders had a crappy old trailer? >How many ended in an out landing? >Come to think of it - how many out landings did you do last 24 months? >To out myself - I have done 4 or 5 pre-arranged training ones and none >in anger. > >With kindest Regards - Rolf > > > From: gstev...@bigpond.com > > To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > > Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:44:57 +1100 > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots > > > > Hi Derek, > > Hope you are well. This is a very late response to your email, > but as no one else seems to have made comment on your suggestion, let > me say that you have summed up the entire discussion in a single line. > Well done. > > > > As a rule of thumb, early X/C flights (dual or solo), should not > exceed 3 hours. > > > > There has been some suggestions that a good trailer is almost > essential for road retrieves. What a load of rot! A good trailer is a > great asset, but it is by no means essential. What IS ESSENTIAL is > that the pilot intending to go X/C is totally familiar with the > workings of the trailer that IS available. Quite simply, if the pilot > is not familiar with the trailer, then NO X/C for that pilot until > this exercise is done. > > > > Just possibly, said pilot might get off his a*se, and make a few > improvements to said trailer, if the trailer is a bit marginal (almost > always!), but in my experience, this is a rare occurrence indeed. > > > > Gary > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net > [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Derek > Ruddock > > Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2015 7:54 PM > > To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Two Seater Nationals > > > > You don't need a DG1000: take the K13! (but don't go as far :) ) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net > [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of DMcD > > Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2015 6:02 PM > > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Two Seater Nationals > > > > >>the GFA pilot training programme for more cross-country > exposure during the ab-initio stage. > > > > Who said that! > > > > If only that happened more during training. IMHO, that's the > single most important thing for a club to do when trying to make the > conversion from student pilot to addicted and committed flyer. > Having done enough HG flying to know what I was up for, the endless > circuit training did not kill my enthusiasm but it can. > > > > My son said at one point that he was wondering what it was all > about until he got to cloud base on day? and I don't think anyone ever > took him XC during training. > > > > I have tried to persuade our club to stop the clock and some > point and say to students at some point, "this is not being charged > for? we're going to fly somewhere for an hour to show you why we all do it." > > > > I'm sure it would make a big difference to the number of pilots > who drop out after going solo. But then we don't have something like > the DG which would make getting home more likely than in a Grob or K21 > > :-) > > > > D > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2015.0.5645 / Virus Database: 4273/9029 - Release Date: > > 01/31/15 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >scrubbed... >URL: ><http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/ >20150216/be6a0ac6/attachment.html> > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 14:44:33 +1100 >From: "Harry " <hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au> >Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots >To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> >Message-ID: <2DDF805C8853432EBC9343C7430B55E9@harryPC> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > >Rolf is right. A DuoDiscus or similar is an easy and pleasant way to >fly a cross country training flight. However not all and probably a >minority of clubs have access to a two seater glider costing perhaps >$200,000 new. > >Please don?t discount what is achievable in a glider of the capability >of an ASK21 on a moderately good soaring day. At Gulgong we had K7 >competitions with up to 7 X K7s flying and the odd Berkfalke or Blanik. >Without the benefit of currently available meteorological information, >the tasks were in the range of over 100 km up to 250 km. Nearly all >gliders got around the tasks. Sure it took a bit longer with maximum >speeds about 60 knots but they were a lot of fun. These gliders may not >go very fast between thermals, but they certainly feel the lift and >climb well. Pretty useful in a training situation with an experienced >pilot on board. > >At lake Keepit we have a data base of airfields and it is possible to >set tasks which keep the gliders pretty close to one. Landing on an >airfield either allows an aerotow or easy retrieve. Distances are not >all that huge and retrieves no great problem with a reasonable trailer. > >So please don?t frighten off those clubs or pilots without the latest >and greatest, > >Harry Medlicott > > > > >From: rolf a. buelter >Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 1:18 PM >To: aus soaring >Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots > >Dear Gary, > >I beg to differ from your opinion. On a lazy Sunday afternoon I'm happy >to embark on a cross country coaching flight in our Duo as I expect to >be back in time for a refreshing drink and still return to my home at a >christian time. With an ASK 13 and an crappy old trailer I expect to >outland, spend three hours in a fly blown paddock and then 2 hour in >the dark to put the glider into a crappy old trailer, return to the >airfield around mid night and be in my bed earliest 1 am Monday. >Besides all that I inflict the same fate on at least 3 other fellow >club members. N.B. - a flight within gliding range of an ASK 13 to the >aerodrome does not qualify as a x-country coaching flight. At best it >represents some thermalling practice. >To conclude a couple of personal questions, which you don't have to >answer if you prefer not to: >How many cross country coaching flights have you conducted over the >last 24 months? >How many of those were in an ASK 13 or similar performance glider? >How many of these gliders had a crappy old trailer? >How many ended in an out landing? >Come to think of it - how many out landings did you do last 24 months? >To out myself - I have done 4 or 5 pre-arranged training ones and none >in anger. > >With kindest Regards - Rolf > > > > From: gstev...@bigpond.com > > To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > > Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:44:57 +1100 > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots > > > > Hi Derek, > > Hope you are well. This is a very late response to your email, > but as no one else seems to have made comment on your suggestion, let > me say that you have summed up the entire discussion in a single line. > Well done. > > > > As a rule of thumb, early X/C flights (dual or solo), should not > exceed 3 hours. > > > > There has been some suggestions that a good trailer is almost > essential for road retrieves. What a load of rot! A good trailer is a > great asset, but it is by no means essential. What IS ESSENTIAL is > that the pilot intending to go X/C is totally familiar with the > workings of the trailer that IS available. Quite simply, if the pilot > is not familiar with the trailer, then NO X/C for that pilot until > this exercise is done. > > > > Just possibly, said pilot might get off his a*se, and make a few > improvements to said trailer, if the trailer is a bit marginal (almost > always!), but in my experience, this is a rare occurrence indeed. > > > > Gary > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net > [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Derek > Ruddock > > Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2015 7:54 PM > > To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Two Seater Nationals > > > > You don't need a DG1000: take the K13! (but don't go as far :) ) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net > [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of DMcD > > Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2015 6:02 PM > > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Two Seater Nationals > > > > >>the GFA pilot training programme for more cross-country > exposure during the ab-initio stage. > > > > Who said that! > > > > If only that happened more during training. IMHO, that's the > single most important thing for a club to do when trying to make the > conversion from student pilot to addicted and committed flyer. > Having done enough HG flying to know what I was up for, the endless > circuit training did not kill my enthusiasm but it can. > > > > My son said at one point that he was wondering what it was all > about until he got to cloud base on day? and I don't think anyone ever > took him XC during training. > > > > I have tried to persuade our club to stop the clock and some > point and say to students at some point, "this is not being charged > for? we're going to fly somewhere for an hour to show you why we all do it." > > > > I'm sure it would make a big difference to the number of pilots > who drop out after going solo. But then we don't have something like > the DG which would make getting home more likely than in a Grob or K21 > > :-) > > > > D > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2015.0.5645 / Virus Database: 4273/9029 - Release Date: > > 01/31/15 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >--------- _______________________________________________ >Aus-soaring mailing list >Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >To check or change subscription details, visit: >http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >scrubbed... >URL: ><http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/ >20150216/b59aa481/attachment.html> > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Aus-soaring mailing list >Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 137, Issue 18 >******************************************** _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
