That is a great help thank you Margaret I think that my GGrandfather Joaquim left Sao Jorge in around 1870 and his brother Manuel was 3 years younger, so maybe the certificate is about a passport. Or, as you say, his marriage if it is 1877. I will search the marriages for Manuel. It was not inheritance because Joaquim as the elder son was asked (by mail) to deal with the estate when his father died in 1881. We don't know what happened. Am I correct in that there is no record of these certificates? Also I believe that passports for that time are not digitised as yet. I read some history written by Robert L Santos, a librarian and archivist at the California State Univ. He mentions how the American whaling industry provided an opportunity for young men to leave the Azores, often to escape conscription. He relates a witness account (early 1870s) of how young men from Sao Jorge climbed down the cliffs and were taken off the island during the night. An English brig had taken off 80 on one particular night. ??? My mother remembered her grandfather Joaquim and said he was a sailor who took cattle across to Hawaii. I think he was probably one of the "escapees" mentioned in these stories, so there would be no passport for him - and there is no record of his immigration to Aust. The first record is the birth of his first child in 1878 in Sydney. By then he was no longer called Joaquim, but Anthony Mitchell and he was working on the wharves in Sydney. Now to look for Manuel. I am almost sure now that this obit is our Victorina (mother of Joaquim and Manuel) - right age, right husband, right first name, right time span,right parish. It all fits. I am grateful for that new information. Regards Diane Donnon South Australia
On Friday, 2 November 2012 23:43:01 UTC+10:30, Mara wrote: > Diane, > > First to clarify my 1871? 1877. It means I'm not sure if it reads > 1871 or 1877 because the writing was too small and faded. > > Priests side notes on baptismal records are related to the person the > record belongs to, in this case, the child, Manuel. He could have > needed a proof of birth or baptism for marriage, sometimes the army or > ID card/passport, if no civil records available or, in the case of him > having been predeceased a proof of his birth record would be required > by the family for legal matters i.e. inheritances. > > Standard notes on birth records are: > > certificate - issued for various personal reasons, ie. marriage, > inheritance, ID cards, passports etc. This certificate may be issued > at various time periods if proof of birth is required for legal > matters in the future and that is why the priests numbered them. > > other notes: marriage and/or death of the individual, usually showing > date of marriage or death, with file/archive numbers and signed by the > priest. > > Anything related to Victorina would be noted on Victorina's baptismal > record. > > Hope this helps, > Margaret Vicente > > > > > On 11/2/12, Diane <ddo...@bigpond.net.au <javascript:>> wrote: > > Hi Margaret > > > > What does the notation mean then? does it mean that this Victorina died > in > > 1871??? Please excuse my ignorance, still learning. > > > > thanks for the link - yes I already had that one. > > > > Diane > > > > > > On Friday, 2 November 2012 11:25:25 UTC+10:30, Mara wrote: > > > >> No, that's not it Diane. > >> > >> 1a. certidao em 16 de Outubro 1871. Translated - First certificate on > >> 16-Oct-1871 > >> > >> I also found this, don't if you already have manuel's birth record, > child > >> > >> of Christiano and Victorina. > >> > >> > http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/P88.html > > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Diane <ddo...@bigpond.net.au > >> <javascript:> > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> I think I have just made the link that confirms that she is the same > >>> person. there is a notation in the margin of her son's baptism record > and > >>> > >>> appears to be the recording of her death. Being new to this research I > >>> had > >>> not taken much notice of it before. It appears to be 16 Sept ?? which > is > >>> > >>> the same date as the obit of Victorina Constancia. Can anyone please > >>> confirm the date on this notation. > >>> > >>> > >>> > http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/P65.html > > >>> > >>> I also looked up the meaning of Constancia and found it means > steadfast. > >>> > >>> thank you > >>> Diane > >>> > >>> On Friday, 2 November 2012 07:58:39 UTC+10:30, Diane wrote: > >>> > >>>> Sorry this may have beem misleading. I meant that she was "Victorina > >>>> Rosa" on her marriage and the baptism of her sons. > >>>> > >>>> Diane > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Friday, 2 November 2012 07:56:54 UTC+10:30, Diane wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Thank you to Cheri, Marcio and Mara for your replies. I do have most > >>>>> of those other records and the only thing that didn't fit was > >>>>> "Constancia". > >>>>> She is "Rosa" on her marriage and the baptism of her sons in 1850 > and > >>>>> 1853. > >>>>> On her baptism and Christiano's second marriage record, she is just > >>>>> Victorina. The age at death on this obit is correct for my Victorina > >>>>> too - > >>>>> 28. I don't see those names appearing together anywhere else. > >>>>> > >>>>> Does the name Constancia have any significant meaning? It may have > >>>>> meant something to the family after she died?? > >>>>> > >>>>> Victorina may have had grandchildren born in the Azores to her > second > >>>>> son. I haven't found them yet. My line were all born in Sydney and > >>>>> those > >>>>> records do not show grandparents. When her son Joaquim married in > >>>>> Sydney in > >>>>> 1884 (after living together for years) his parents are stated as > >>>>> Victoria > >>>>> Rosa and Christian Mitchell (Mitchell was Joaquim's new assumed > surname > >>>>> > >>>>> name in Australia). I knew that his mother died when he was a child > and > >>>>> > >>>>> that he had a stepmother and we still have the letters she wrote to > him > >>>>> > >>>>> from Urzelina - signed off as Perpetua Rosa (she was Victorina's > sister > >>>>> and > >>>>> their mother was Victorina de Jesus from Urzelina). > >>>>> > >>>>> It all seems very sad, but I too think I have the right one because > >>>>> there is no other Victorina obit in that time period that I can see. > >>>>> > >>>>> On further question: Was it common for couples to live together > outside > >>>>> > >>>>> of marriage in those villages? This family of mine were very devout > >>>>> Catholics and if this is the right Victorina, it means that > Christiano > >>>>> was > >>>>> single with 2 very young children for about 10 years before he > >>>>> remarried. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks again. > >>>>> Diane Donnon > >>>>> South Autralia > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Friday, 2 November 2012 03:12:29 UTC+10:30, Cheri Mello wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Diane D, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It's probably her. Do you find any other Victorina (Rosa or > >>>>>> Constancia) having babies with another Cristiano Machado (or > Machado > >>>>>> Pereira)? If you don't find another Cristiano/Vitorina couple, > then > >>>>>> that's > >>>>>> your Vitorina's obit. You can also look for Cristiano's 2nd > marriage > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> see what they call Vitorina (he'll be a widower of Vitorina ___). > You > >>>>>> have > >>>>>> her on all the kids' baptisms as Vitorina Constancia? What about > all > >>>>>> of > >>>>>> her biological grandkids? How do they list her at their baptism? > >>>>>> Cheri Mello > >>>>>> Listowner, Azores-Gen > >>>>>> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das > >>>>>> Tainhas, Achada > >>>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> azores+un...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. Follow the confirmation > >>> directions when they arrive. > >>> For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No > Mail > >>> > >>> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the > >>> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my > >>> membership." > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Margaret M Vicente > >> > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > azores+un...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. Follow the confirmation > directions > > when they arrive. > > For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail > > (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the > right > > that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my > membership." > > > -- > Margaret M Vicente > -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
