On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 20:22:28 -0800, Rich Ater <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't have > trouble with believing that these events may have occurred, > considering the times. Gilberto: I don't know what "considering the times" means. I'm not sure how the passing of time could by itself change the moral status of genocide. If you admit that there are extreme circumstances where genocide is actually justified, then if those extreme circumstances ever repeated themselves in the future, then genocide would again be justified. Rich: Gilberto, By the times, I mean just that. A small band > fighting for survival. Mind you, I never said the actions were justified, > just that such things happened. If you read the monuments and cuniform > tablets of the assyrians and babylonians you find much the same kind of > stuff. Back then whole villages got wiped out in war. Gilberto: Ok, occasionally whole villages get wiped out in modern times as well. But then I'm a little lost or confused in terms of what you are saying. It seems like you are changing the focus and emphasizing the question of whether or not massacres and genocides occured in the past. I agree with you that they did but the question is whether or not God approved them. And at least in my mind it was connected to the discussion of Progressive revelation and Biblical corruption. For example, consider Deuteronomy 7 [1] "When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Gir'gashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, seven nations greater and mightier than yourselves, [2] and when the LORD your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them. [3] You shall not make marriages with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons. [4] For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the LORD would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. [5] But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Ashe'rim, and burn their graven images with fire. [6] "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, out of all the peoples that are on the face of the earth. And there is actually many other passages of the Bible which reiterate variations of these genocidal commandments. And if you read the book of Joshua you would see how these commandments were implemented by the armies of the children of Israel when they started to take over the "promised" land. Personally, I have a really hard time believing that God would ever inspire anyone to do that. So in terms of Biblical corruption, I think the above is an example of text which is in the Biblical Penteteuch but probably wasn't in the Torah revealed to Moses. There is actually an interesting passage in the Quran about God giving instructions to the children of Israel: 002.057 YUSUFALI: And We gave you the shade of clouds and sent down to you Manna and quails, saying: "Eat of the good things We have provided for you:" (But they rebelled); to us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls. PICKTHAL: And We caused the white cloud to overshadow you and sent down on you the manna and the quails, (saying): Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you - they wronged Us not, but they did wrong themselves. SHAKIR: And We made the clouds to give shade over you and We sent to you manna and quails: Eat of the good things that We have given you; and they did not do Us any harm, but they made their own souls suffer the loss. 002.058 YUSUFALI: And remember We said: "Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good." PICKTHAL: And when We said: Go into this township and eat freely of that which is therein, and enter the gate prostrate, and say: "Repentance." We will forgive you your sins and will increase (reward) for the right-doers. SHAKIR: And when We said: Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish, and enter the gate making obeisance, and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you your wrongs and give more to those who do good (to others). 002.059 YUSUFALI: But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly. PICKTHAL: But those who did wrong changed the word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from heaven for their evil-doing. SHAKIR: But those who were unjust changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them, so We sent upon those who were unjust a pestilence from heaven, because they transgressed. So the Quran the children of Israel are told to enter the city with forgiveness and humility, but the commandment was changed. In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any way, then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from God, and then you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain such behavior through progressive revelation. But if you do apply certain minimal moral standards to the children of Israel then their behavior was unacceptable and couldn't have originated with God, and so those commandments in the Old TEstament must have had some other source. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
