On 10/21/05, Iskandar Hai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wouldn't want to impose my 21st century values, sensibilities, ethics,
> standards, etc. upon God nor upon His Prophet Muhammad in the 7th
> century. If the Prophet Muhmmad said it (and I have no compelling reason
> that He didn't), then it was the Will of God for Him to make that
> statement at that time. God doeth whatsoever He willeth and so does His
> Manifestation or the Prophet.
Dear Iskandar,
Okay. I see where you are coming from. And I don't expect to convince
you otherwise. We should just agree to disagree. I would just prefer
to think that values, especially those coming from God, would be more
fundamental and long-lasting than what you are describing. Even if
they last for over a millenia before changing, moral values shouldn't
just be a "fad". I'm sure there are ways that specific circumstances
change. But we should be able to apply *some* kind of moral reasoning
based on more fundamental principles.
On top of that, given how the Bahai faith says that religious laws
change, I think the periods we are talking about are really not as
distant as you seem to be making out. According to the Bahai faith,
isn't the shariah valid until the Bab announced that he was bringing a
new revelation in 1844,
So from that perspective, and your interpretation of the hadith,
killing apostates is A-OK until 1843. And I don't know how old you are
but I would guess that your formative years were still definitely over
5 years ago. So really, we are talking about you imposing your late
20th century values on the mid-19th century which isn't as much of a
stretch.
Peace
Gilberto
>
> Iskandar
>
> Quoting Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Thanks for your attempts at clarifying the issue; but, with all
> > due
> > > respect, I'm not persuaded yet that the Bukhari hadith that Hajir
> > > mentioned is fake. But I'd love to be able to belive what you say
> > below.
> >
> > I'm not trying to argue that the hadith is fake. But if it is, that
> > just makes a certain argument easier. So now we can consider the
> > alternative. I've already taken a stab at it. So now the question
> > goes
> > to you. If you really believe that Muhammad said this and you also
> > believe Muhammad was a Manifestation of God, then this isn't just a
> > Muslim burden to try to justify the statement found in the hadith.
> > How
> > do you as a Bahai justify the statement?
> >
> > -Gilberto
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Iskandar
> > >
> > > On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > I wouldn't want to read into that hadith things that are not
> > obviousl> y and
> > > > > clearly in it. That would be distortion and misrepresentation.
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I would want to avoid fundamentalism and a certain
> > narrow
> > > > minded approach. For most questions, it generally isn't a good
> > idea to
> > > > whip out the first passage in the Quran or hadith which you
> > think
> > > > might apply, and interpret it in the first way which occurs to
> > you.
> > > > The wiser and more intelligent approach would be to look at all
> > the
> > > > different texts which apply, and try to understand what they say
> > > > collectively. And make sure you understand them properly, and
> > make
> > > > sure you understand the real-world situation you want to apply
> > them
> > > > to.
> > > >
> > > > > So Unless, of
> > > > > course, one can find another particular hadith that
> > specifically,
> > > > > explicitly, and clearly addresses this hadith and elaborates on
> > it an> d
> > > > > clarifies it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > For example, one passage not just from a hadith but from the
> > Quran
> > > > which is easy to mention in this regard is:
> > > >
> > > > "whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for
> > mischief
> > > > in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps
> > it
> > > > alive, it is as though he kept alive all men"
> > > >
> > > > So if you find some isolated hadith saying that its ok to kill
> > > > someone, a reasonable assumption is that they must have been
> > guilty of
> > > > murder themselves or "mischief in the land"
> > > >
> > > > or again:
> > > >
> > > > [6.151] Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to
> > you--
> > > > (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show
> > > > kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear
> > of)
> > > > poverty-- We provide for you and for them-- and do not draw nigh
> > to
> > > > indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which
> > are
> > > > concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden
> > except
> > > > for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with
> > that
> > > > you may understand
> > > >
> > > > "do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the
> > > > requirements of justice".
> > > >
> > > > So it would be clearly wrong to kill someone who had done nothing
> > wrong> .
> > > >
> > > > Peace
> > > >
> > > > Gilberto
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I
> > think tha> t the
> > > > > > > Prophet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some
> > compelli> ng
> > > > > > > evidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said
> > it. But> , the
> > > > > > > fact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not
> > said i> t is not
> > > > > > > a compelling reason to belive that He actually didn't say
> > it. I'd> love to
> > > > > > > be able to say (and prove) that the hadith is a fake. I
> > just don'> t have
> > > > > > > that proof now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for being honest. Do you think it is possible to
> > interpret t> he
> > > > > > hadith in a way which doesn't have the features you find
> > problemati> c?
> > > > > > For example, is it possible that the young people talked
> > about have
> > > > > > some other feature or characteristic not mentioned in the
> > hadith wh> ich
> > > > > > is the real reason why they would be killed? What I mean is,
> > could > it
> > > > > > be that there is a very specific group of people who really
> > are/wer> e
> > > > > > especially dangerous to the faith for reasons which aren't
> > actually
> > > > > > mentioned in the hadith, but this group is only described by
> > the
> > > > > > hadith.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
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