What may be "controversial" Gilberto is that you imply that mankind can
reason its way towards the embracing of certain "intrinsic" values. I am
asking for the origin of these values. You give me the impression that you
believe that the existence of these values you refer to as "intrinsic"
either do exist independent of God's Revelation or that they can be invented
through the reasoning of mankind because they are "intrinsic" i.e. possess a
value that has always been and always will be sustained by the values
themselves without the need of God. My question is: "But how can that
be?" if that is what you imply.
Richard.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilberto Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies" <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: question about Islam
On 5/10/06, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear gilberto,
> I am simply following your arguments and asking questions. I ask the same
> questions of scientific persons. I want to know from where or how you
think
> any of what is "instrinsic" originates. It must have a source. I want to
> investigate the source of that source.
>
> Richard.
Ok, then I would point to the fact that there is a lot of overlap in
the moral guidelines endorsed by many different religions or
non-religious ethical philosophies. Some people worship on Sunday
morning, or Friday afternoon, or Saturday. They fast on different
days. The believe in different prophets and messengers. Celebrate
different holy days. Pray in different directions. But they agree that
people shouldn't lie cheat and steal. That suggests something is
actually wrong with lying cheating and stealing.
I don't know what is so contraversial.
-Gilberto
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gilberto Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Baha'i Studies" <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:20 PM
> Subject: Re: question about Islam
>
>
> Again, I'm not sure what your goal is in responding. I've been feeling
> like we should be able to agree, or at least agree to disagree but for
> some reason it seems like you are pushing towards something else.
>
>
> On 5/10/06, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Gilberto,
> > What I would say is
> > that humans have *some* capacity for moral reasoning.
>
>
> > Richard
> > What ever capacities man may have have been created by God for His
> purposes.
>
> Gilberto:
> Ok. So why do you seem so hesitant and reluctant towards recognizing
> the validity is this capacity?
>
> Richard:
> Why, if God has given man no guidance to
> > man on an issue, should man seek to investigate it?
>
> Gilberto:
> I don't think you can help it. As human beings in the world, we are
> always confronted with different decisions. Not everything is neatly
> covered by simple legal rules. There are times when we have to make
> difficult decisions and it is not certain which way to go.
>
>
> > Gilberto
> > So that just
> > means, that to some degree acts are intrinsically moral or immoral,
> > and we have some capacity to make that determination apart from
> > revelation.
>
> > Richard.
> > How is it that these "acts" have been invested with "intrinsic" value?
> > Would you say that "they just are"? No power created them? Would you
> posit
> > that these "intrinsic values" exist independent of and cannot be
abrogated
> > by God?
>
> I would go back to the original example. Even before Bahaullah freed
> his slaves and banned slavery, morally sensitive people were already
> thinking that there is something wrong with slavery. That suggests
> something immoral in the institution, at least as it was practiced at
> that period in time, which other people could recognize.
>
> -G
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email
reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
attachments thereto. Thank you.
__________________________________________________
>
>
> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe:
http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
> Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
> News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
> Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subscribe:
http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
> Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
> News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
> Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
>
--
"There are no poets"
__________________________________________________
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
__________________________________________________
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st
News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st
Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist
Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net
New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
